ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν καὶ τοὐναντίον, ὡς ὑγιὲς οὐδὲν ψυχῆς δούλης, οὐδὲ πιστεύειν οὐδέποτʼ οὐδὲν τῷ γένει δεῖ τὸν νοῦν κεκτημένον; ὁ δὲ σοφώτατος ἡμῖν τῶν ποιητῶν καὶ ἀπεφήνατο, ὑπὲρ τοῦ Διὸς ἀγορεύων, ὡς— […] ἥμισυ γάρ τε νόου, φησίν, […] ἀπαμείρεται εὐρύοπα Ζεύς / ἀνδρῶν, οὓς ἂν δὴ κατὰ δούλιον ἦμαρ ἕλῃσι. / ταῦτα δὴ διαλαβόντες ἕκαστοι τοῖς διανοήμασιν οἱ μὲν πιστεύουσί τε οὐδὲν γένει οἰκετῶν, κατὰ δὲ θηρίων φύσιν κέντροις καὶ μάστιξιν οὐ τρὶς μόνον ἀλλὰ πολλάκις ἀπεργάζονται δούλας τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν οἰκετῶν· οἱ δʼ αὖ τἀναντία τούτων δρῶσι πάντα.
ΜΕ. τί μήν;
ΚΛ. τί οὖν δὴ χρὴ ποιεῖν, τούτων, ὦ ξένε, διαφερομένων οὕτω, περὶ τῆς ἡμετέρας αὖ χώρας ἡμᾶς, τῆς τε κτήσεως ἅμα καὶ κολάσεως τῶν δούλων πέρι;
ΑΘ. τί δʼ, ὦ Κλεινία; δῆλον ὡς ἐπειδὴ δύσκολόν ἐστι τὸ θρέμμα ἄνθρωπος, καὶ πρὸς τὴν ἀναγκαίαν διόρισιν, τὸ δοῦλόν τε ἔργῳ διορίζεσθαι καὶ ἐλεύθερον καὶ δεσπότην, οὐδαμῶς εὔχρηστον ἐθέλειν εἶναί τε καὶ γίγνεσθαι φαίνεται, χαλεπὸν δὴ τὸ κτῆμα· ἔργῳ γὰρ πολλάκις ἐπιδέδεικται περὶ τὰς Μεσσηνίων συχνὰς εἰωθυίας ἀποστάσεις γίγνεσθαι, καὶ περί γε τὰς τῶν ἐκ μιᾶς φωνῆς πολλοὺς οἰκέτας κτωμένων πόλεις, ὅσα κακὰ συμβαίνει, καὶ ἔτι τὰ τῶν λεγομένων περιδίνων τῶν περὶ τὴν Ἰταλίαν γιγνομένων παντοδαπὰ κλωπῶν ἔργα τε καὶ παθήματα. πρὸς ἅ τις ἂν πάντα βλέψας διαπορήσειε τί χρὴ δρᾶν περὶ ἁπάντων τῶν τοιούτων. δύο δὴ λείπεσθον μόνω μηχανά, μήτε πατριώτας ἀλλήλων εἶναι τοὺς μέλλοντας ῥᾷον δουλεύσειν, ἀσυμφώνους τε εἰς δύναμιν ὅτι μάλιστα, τρέφειν δʼ αὐτοὺς ὀρθῶς, μὴ μόνον ἐκείνων ἕνεκα, πλέον δὲ αὑτῶν προτιμῶντας· ἡ δὲ τροφὴ τῶν τοιούτων μήτε τινὰ ὕβριν ὑβρίζειν εἰς τοὺς οἰκέτας, ἧττον δέ, εἰ δυνατόν, ἀδικεῖν ἢ τοὺς ἐξ ἴσου. διάδηλος γὰρ ὁ φύσει καὶ μὴ πλαστῶς σέβων τὴν δίκην, μισῶν δὲ ὄντως τὸ ἄδικον, ἐν τούτοις τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐν οἷς αὐτῷ ῥᾴδιον ἀδικεῖν· ὁ περὶ τὰ τῶν δούλων οὖν ἤθη καὶ πράξεις γιγνόμενός τις ἀμίαντος τοῦ τε ἀνοσίου πέρι καὶ ἀδίκου, σπείρειν εἰς ἀρετῆς ἔκφυσιν ἱκανώτατος ἂν εἴη, ταὐτὸν δʼ ἔστʼ εἰπεῖν τοῦτο ὀρθῶς ἅμα λέγοντα ἐπί τε δεσπότῃ καὶ τυράννῳ καὶ πᾶσαν δυναστείαν δυναστεύοντι πρὸς ἀσθενέστερον ἑαυτοῦ.
Ath. And is not the opposite kind of language also used,—that the soul of a slave has no soundness in it, and that a sensible man should never trust that class at all? And our wisest poet, too, in speaking of Zeus, declared that—Of half their wits far-thundering Zeus bereaves / Those men on whom the day of bondage falls. / Thus each party adopts a different attitude of mind: the one places no trust at all in the servant-class, but, treating them like brute beasts, with goads and whips they make the servants’ souls not merely thrice but fifty times enslaved; whereas the other party act in precisely the opposite way.
Meg. Just so.
Clin. Since this difference of opinion exists, Stranger, what ought we to do about our own country, in regard to the owning of slaves and their punishment?
Ath. Well now, Clinias, since man is an intractable creature, it is plain that he is not at all likely to be or become easy to deal with in respect of the necessary distinction between slave and free-born master in actual experience.
Clin. That is evident.
Ath. The slave is no easy chattel. For actual experience shows how many evils result from slavery,—as in the frequent revolts in Messenia, and in the States where there are many servants kept who speak the same tongue, not to speak of the crimes of all sorts committed by the “Corsairs,” as they are called, who haunt the coasts of Italy, and the reprisals therefor. In view of all these facts, it is really a puzzle to know how to deal with all such matters. Two means only are left for us to try—the one is, not to allow the slaves, if they are to tolerate slavery quietly, to be all of the same nation, but, so far as possible, to have them of different races,—and the other is to accord them proper treatment, and that not only for their sakes, but still more for the sake of ourselves. Proper treatment of servants consists in using no violence towards them, and in hurting them even less, if possible, than our own equals. For it is his way of dealing with men whom it is easy for him to wrong that shows most clearly whether a man is genuine or hypocritical in his reverence for justice and hatred of injustice. He, therefore, that in dealing with slaves proves himself, in his character and action, undefiled by what is unholy or unjust will best be able to sow a crop of goodness,—and this we may say, and justly say, of every master, or king, and of everyone who possesses any kind of absolute power over a person weaker than himself.
ΑΘ. κολάζειν γε μὴν ἐν δίκῃ δούλους δεῖ, καὶ μὴ νουθετοῦντας ὡς ἐλευθέρους θρύπτεσθαι ποιεῖν· τὴν δὲ οἰκέτου πρόσρησιν χρὴ σχεδὸν ἐπίταξιν πᾶσαν γίγνεσθαι, μὴ προσπαίζοντας μηδαμῇ μηδαμῶς οἰκέταις, μήτʼ οὖν θηλείαις μήτε ἄρρεσιν, ἃ δὴ πρὸς δούλους φιλοῦσι πολλοὶ σφόδρα ἀνοήτως θρύπτοντες χαλεπώτερον ἀπεργάζεσθαι τὸν βίον ἐκείνοις τε ἄρχεσθαι καὶ ἑαυτοῖς ἄρχειν.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς λέγεις.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ὅτε τις οἰκέταις κατεσκευασμένος εἰς δύναμιν εἴη πλήθει καὶ ἐπιτηδειότητι πρὸς ἑκάστας τὰς τῶν ἔργων παραβοηθείας, τὸ δὴ μετὰ τοῦτο οἰκήσεις χρὴ διαγράφειν τῷ λόγῳ;
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
ΑΘ. καὶ συμπάσης γε ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἔοικεν τῆς οἰκοδομικῆς πέρι τήν γε δὴ νέαν καὶ ἀοίκητον ἐν τῷ πρόσθεν πόλιν ἐπιμελητέον εἶναι, τίνα τρόπον ἕκαστα ἕξει τούτων περί τε ἱερὰ καὶ τείχη. γάμων δʼ ἦν ἔμπροσθεν ταῦτα, ὦ Κλεινία, νῦν δʼ ἔπειπερ λόγῳ γίγνεται, καὶ μάλʼ ἐγχωρεῖ ταύτῃ γίγνεσθαι τὰ νῦν· ἔργῳ μὴν ὅταν γίγνηται, ταῦτʼ ἔμπροσθεν τῶν γάμων, ἐὰν θεὸς ἐθέλῃ, ποιήσαντες, ἐκεῖνα ἤδη τότε ἐπὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀποτελοῦμεν. νῦν δὲ μόνον ὅσον τινὰ τύπον αὐτῶν διʼ ὀλίγων ἐπεξέλθωμεν.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
ΑΘ. τὰ μὲν τοίνυν ἱερὰ πᾶσαν πέριξ τήν τε ἀγορὰν χρὴ κατασκευάζειν, καὶ τὴν πόλιν ὅλην ἐν κύκλῳ πρὸς τοῖς ὑψηλοῖς τῶν τόπων, εὐερκείας τε καὶ καθαρότητος χάριν· πρὸς δὲ αὐτοῖς οἰκήσεις τε ἀρχόντων καὶ δικαστηρίων, ἐν οἷς τὰς δίκας ὡς ἱερωτάτοις οὖσιν λήψονταί τε καὶ δώσουσι, τὰ μὲν ὡς ὁσίων πέρι, τὰ δὲ καὶ τοιούτων θεῶν ἱδρύματα, καὶ ἐν τούτοις δικαστήρια, ἐν οἷς αἵ τε τῶν φόνων πρέπουσαι δίκαι γίγνοιντʼ ἂν καὶ ὅσα θανάτων ἄξια ἀδικήματα. περὶ δὲ τειχῶν, ὦ Μέγιλλε, ἔγωγʼ ἂν τῇ Σπάρτῃ συμφεροίμην τὸ καθεύδειν ἐᾶν ἐν τῇ γῇ κατακείμενα τὰ τείχη καὶ μὴ ἐπανιστάναι, τῶνδε εἵνεκα. καλῶς μὲν καὶ ὁ ποιητικὸς ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν λόγος ὑμνεῖται, τὸ χαλκᾶ καὶ σιδηρᾶ δεῖν εἶναι τὰ τείχη μᾶλλον ἢ γήινα·
Ath. We ought to punish slaves justly, and not to make them conceited by merely admonishing them as we would free men. An address to a servant should be mostly a simple command: there should be no jesting with servants, either male or female, for by a course of excessively foolish indulgence in their treatment of their slaves, masters often make life harder both for themselves, as rulers, and for their slaves, as subject to rule.
Clin. That is true.
Ath. Suppose, then, that we are now, to the best of our power, provided with servants sufficient in number and quality to assist in every kind of task, should we not, in the next place, describe our dwellings?
Clin. Most certainly.
Ath. It would seem that our city, being new and houseless hitherto, must provide for practically the whole of its house-building, arranging all the details of its architecture, including temples and walls. These things are really, Clinias, prior to marriage; but since our construction is now a verbal one, this is a very suitable place to deal with them; when we come to the actual construction of the State, we shall, God willing, make the houses precede marriage, and crown all our architectural work with our marriage-laws. For the present we shall confine ourselves to a brief outline of our building regulations.
Clin. Certainly.
Ath. The temples we must erect all round the market-place, and in a circle round the whole city, on the highest spots, for the sake of ease in fencing them and of cleanliness: beside the temples we will set the houses of the officials and the law-courts, in which, as being most holy places, they will give and receive judgments,— partly because therein they deal with holy matters, and partly because they are the seats of holy gods; and in these will fittingly be held trials for murder and for all crimes worthy of death. As to walls, Megillus, I would agree with your Sparta in letting the walls lie sleeping in the ground, and not wake them up, and that for the following reasons. It is a fine saying of the poet, and often repeated, that walls should be made of bronze and iron rather than of earth.
ΑΘ. τὸ δʼ ἡμέτερον ἔτι πρὸς τούτοις γέλωτʼ ἂν δικαίως πάμπολυν ὄφλοι, τὸ κατʼ ἐνιαυτὸν μὲν ἐκπέμπειν εἰς τὴν χώραν τοὺς νέους, τὰ μὲν σκάψοντας, τὰ δὲ ταφρεύσοντας, τὰ δὲ καὶ διά τινων οἰκοδομήσεων εἴρξοντας τοὺς πολεμίους, ὡς δὴ τῶν ὅρων τῆς χώρας οὐκ ἐάσοντας ἐπιβαίνειν, τεῖχος δὲ περιβαλοίμεθα, ὃ πρῶτον μὲν πρὸς ὑγίειαν ταῖς πόλεσιν οὐδαμῶς συμφέρει, πρὸς δέ τινα μαλθακὴν ἕξιν ταῖς ψυχαῖς τῶν ἐνοικούντων εἴωθε ποιεῖν, προκαλούμενον εἰς αὐτὸ καταφεύγοντας μὴ ἀμύνεσθαι τοὺς πολεμίους, μηδὲ τῷ φρουρεῖν ἀεί τινας ἐν αὐτῇ νύκτωρ καὶ μεθʼ ἡμέραν, τούτῳ τῆς σωτηρίας τυγχάνειν, τείχεσι δὲ καὶ πύλαις διανοεῖσθαι φραχθέντας τε καὶ καθεύδοντας σωτηρίας ὄντως ἕξειν μηχανάς, ὡς ἐπὶ τὸ μὴ πονεῖν γεγονότας, ἀγνοοῦντας δʼ αὖ τὴν ῥᾳστώνην ὡς ὄντως ἐστὶν ἐκ τῶν πόνων· ἐκ ῥᾳστώνης δέ γε, οἶμαι, τῆς αἰσχρᾶς οἱ πόνοι καὶ ῥᾳθυμίας πεφύκασι γίγνεσθαι πάλιν. ἀλλʼ εἰ δὴ τεῖχός γέ τι χρεὼν ἀνθρώποις εἶναι, τὰς οἰκοδομίας χρὴ τὰς τῶν ἰδίων οἰκήσεων οὕτως ἐξ ἀρχῆς βάλλεσθαι, ὅπως ἂν ᾖ πᾶσα ἡ πόλις ἓν τεῖχος, ὁμαλότητί τε καὶ ὁμοιότησιν εἰς τὰς ὁδοὺς πασῶν τῶν οἰκήσεων ἐχουσῶν εὐέρκειαν, ἰδεῖν τε οὐκ ἀηδὲς μιᾶς οἰκίας σχῆμα ἐχούσης αὐτῆς, εἴς τε τὴν τῆς φυλακῆς ῥᾳστώνην ὅλῳ καὶ παντὶ πρὸς σωτηρίαν γίγνοιτʼ ἂν διάφορος. τούτων δέ, ὡς ἂν μένῃ τὰ κατʼ ἀρχὰς οἰκοδομηθέντα, μέλειν μὲν μάλιστα τοῖς ἐνοικοῦσι πρέπον ἂν εἴη, τοὺς δὲ ἀστυνόμους ἐπιμελεῖσθαι καὶ προσαναγκάζοντας τὸν ὀλιγωροῦντα ζημιοῦντας, καὶ πάντων δὴ τῶν κατὰ τὸ ἄστυ καθαρότητός τʼ ἐπιμελεῖσθαι, καὶ ὅπως ἰδιώτης μηδεὶς μηδὲν τῶν τῆς πόλεως μήτε οἰκοδομήμασι μήτε οὖν ὀρύγμασιν ἐπιλήψεται. καὶ δὴ καὶ ὑδάτων τῶν ἐκ Διὸς εὐροίας τούτους ἐπιμελεῖσθαι χρεών, καὶ ὅσα ἐντὸς πόλεως ἢ ὁπόσα ἔξω πρέπον ἂν οἰκεῖν εἴη· ταῦτα δὲ πάντα συνιδόντες ταῖς χρείαις οἱ νομοφύλακες ἐπινομοθετούντων καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ὁπόσα ἂν ὁ νόμος ἐκλείπῃ διʼ ἀπορίαν. ὅτε δὲ ταῦτά τε καὶ τὰ περὶ ἀγορὰν οἰκοδομήματα καὶ τὰ περὶ τὰ γυμνάσια καὶ πάντα ὅσα διδασκαλεῖα κατεσκευασμένα περιμένει τοὺς φοιτητὰς καὶ θεατὰς θέατρα, πορευώμεθα ἐπὶ τὰ μετὰ τοὺς γάμους, τῆς νομοθεσίας ἑξῆς ἐχόμενοι.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
ΑΘ. γάμοι μὲν τοίνυν ἡμῖν ἔστωσαν γεγονότες, ὦ Κλεινία· δίαιτα δὲ πρὸ παιδογονίας οὐκ ἐλάττων ἐνιαυσίας γίγνοιτʼ ἂν τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, ἣν δὴ τίνα τρόπον χρὴ ζῆν νυμφίον καὶ νύμφην ἐν πόλει διαφερούσῃ τῶν πολλῶν ἐσομένῃ—τὸ δὴ τῶν νῦν εἰρημένων ἐχόμενον—εἰπεῖν οὐ πάντων εὐκολώτατον, ἀλλὰ ὄντων οὐκ ὀλίγων τῶν ἔμπροσθεν τοιούτων, τοῦτο ἔτι ἐκείνων τῶν πολλῶν δυσχερέστερον ἀποδέχεσθαι τῷ πλήθει. τό γε μὴν δοκοῦν ὀρθὸν καὶ ἀληθὲς εἶναι πάντως ῥητέον, ὦ Κλεινία.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ath. But our plan, in addition to this, would deserve to raise roars of laughter,—I mean the plan of sending young men into the country every year to dig and trench and build, so as to keep the enemy out and prevent their ever setting foot on the borders of the land—if we were also to build a wall round; for, in the first place, a wall is by no means an advantage to a city as regards health, and, moreover, it usually causes a soft habit of soul in the inhabitants, by inviting them to seek refuge within it instead of repelling the enemy; instead of securing their safety by keeping watch night and day, it tempts them to believe that their safety is ensured if they are fenced in with walls and gates and go to sleep, like men born to shirk toil, little knowing that ease is really the fruit of toil, whereas a new crop of toils is the inevitable outcome, as I think, of dishonorable ease and sloth. But if men really must have a wall, then the building of the private houses must be arranged from the start in such a way that the whole city may form a single wall; all the houses must have good walls, built regularly and in a similar style, facing the roads, so that the whole city will have the form of a single house, which will render its appearance not unpleasing, besides being far and away the best plan for ensuring safety and ease for defence. To see that the original buildings remain will fittingly be the special charge of the inmates; and the city-stewards should supervise them, and compel by fines those who are negligent, and also watch over the cleanliness of everything in the city, and prevent any private person from encroaching on State property either by buildings or diggings. These officers must also keep a watch over the proper flowing of the rain-water, and over all other matters, whether within or without the city, that it is right for them to manage. All such details—and all else that the lawgiver is unable to deal with and omits— the Law-wardens shall regulate by supplementary decrees, taking account of the practical requirements. And now that these buildings and those of the market-place, and the gymnasia, and all the schools have been erected and await their inmates, and the theaters their spectators, let us proceed to the subject which comes next after marriage, taking our legislation in order.
Clin. By all means.
Ath. Let us regard the marriage ceremony as now completed, Clinias; next will come the period before child-birth, which will extend to a full year: how the bride and bridegroom ought to pass this time in a State that will be unlike most other States,—that is to be our next theme, and it is not the easiest of things to explain; we have uttered not a few hard sayings before, but none of them all will the mass find harder to accept than this. All the same, what we believe to be right and true must by all means be stated, Clinias.
Clin. Certainly.
ΑΘ. ὅστις δὴ διανοεῖται πόλεσιν ἀποφαίνεσθαι νόμους, πῇ τὰ δημόσια καὶ κοινὰ αὐτοὺς χρὴ ζῆν πράττοντας, τῶν δὲ ἰδίων ὅσον ἀνάγκη μηδὲ οἴεται δεῖν, ἐξουσίαν δὲ ἑκάστοις εἶναι τὴν ἡμέραν ζῆν ὅπως ἂν ἐθέλῃ, καὶ μὴ πάντα διὰ τάξεως δεῖν γίγνεσθαι, προέμενος δὲ τὰ ἴδια ἀνομοθέτητα, ἡγεῖται τά γε κοινὰ καὶ δημόσια ἐθελήσειν αὐτοὺς ζῆν διὰ νόμων, οὐκ ὀρθῶς διανοεῖται. τίνος δὴ χάριν ταῦτα εἴρηται; τοῦδε, ὅτι φήσομεν δεῖν ἡμῖν τοὺς νυμφίους μηδὲν διαφερόντως μηδὲ ἧττον ἐν συσσιτίοις τὴν δίαιταν ποιεῖσθαι τοῦ πρὸ τῶν γάμων χρόνου γενομένου. καὶ τοῦτο μὲν δὴ θαυμαστὸν ὄν, ὅτε κατʼ ἀρχὰς πρῶτον ἐγένετο ἐν τοῖς παρʼ ὑμῖν τόποις, πολέμου τινὸς αὐτό, ὥς γʼ εἰκός, νομοθετήσαντος ἤ τινος ἑτέρου τὴν αὐτὴν δύναμιν ἔχοντος πράγματος ἐν ὀλιγανθρωπίαις ὑπὸ πολλῆς ἀπορίας ἐχομένοις, γευσαμένοις δὲ καὶ ἀναγκασθεῖσι χρήσασθαι τοῖς συσσιτίοις ἔδοξεν μέγα διαφέρειν εἰς σωτηρίαν τὸ νόμιμον, καὶ κατέστη δὴ τρόπῳ τινὶ τοιούτῳ τὸ ἐπιτήδευμα ὑμῖν τὸ τῶν συσσιτίων.
ΚΛ. ἔοικε γοῦν.
ΑΘ. ὃ δὴ ἔλεγον, ὅτι θαυμαστὸν ὂν τοῦτό ποτε καὶ φοβερὸν ἐπιτάξαι τισίν, νῦν οὐχ ὁμοίως τῷ προστάττοντι δυσχερὲς ἂν εἴη νομοθετεῖν αὐτό· τὸ δʼ ἑξῆς τούτῳ, πεφυκός τε ὀρθῶς ἂν γίγνεσθαι γιγνόμενον, νῦν τε οὐδαμῇ γιγνόμενον, ὀλίγου τε ποιοῦν τὸν νομοθέτην, τὸ τῶν παιζόντων, εἰς πῦρ ξαίνειν καὶ μυρία ἕτερα τοιαῦτα ἀνήνυτα ποιοῦντα δρᾶν, οὐ ῥᾴδιον οὔτʼ εἰπεῖν οὔτʼ εἰπόντα ἀποτελεῖν.
ΚΛ. τί δὴ τοῦτο, ὦ ξένε, ἐπιχειρῶν λέγειν ἔοικας σφόδρα ἀποκνεῖν;
ΑΘ. ἀκούοιτʼ ἄν, ἵνα μὴ πολλὴ διατριβὴ γίγνηται περὶ τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ μάτην. πᾶν μὲν γάρ, ὅτιπερ ἂν τάξεως καὶ νόμου μετέχον ἐν πόλει γίγνηται, πάντα ἀγαθὰ ἀπεργάζεται, τῶν δὲ ἀτάκτων ἢ τῶν κακῶς ταχθέντων λύει τὰ πολλὰ τῶν εὖ τεταγμένων ἄλλα ἕτερα. οὗ δὴ καὶ νῦν ἐφέστηκεν πέρι τὸ λεγόμενον. ὑμῖν γάρ, ὦ Κλεινία καὶ Μέγιλλε, τὰ μὲν περὶ τοὺς ἄνδρας συσσίτια καλῶς ἅμα καί, ὅπερ εἶπον, θαυμαστῶς καθέστηκεν ἐκ θείας τινὸς ἀνάγκης, τὸ δὲ περὶ τὰς γυναῖκας οὐδαμῶς ὀρθῶς ἀνομοθέτητον μεθεῖται καὶ οὐκ εἰς τὸ φῶς ἦκται τὸ τῆς συσσιτίας αὐτῶν ἐπιτήδευμα,
Ath. Whoever proposes to publish laws for States, regulating the conduct of the citizens in State affairs and public matters, and deems that there is no need to make laws for their private conduct, even in necessary matters, but that everyone should be allowed to spend his day just as he pleases, instead of its being compulsory for everything, public and private, to be done by a regular rule, and supposes that, if he leaves private conduct unregulated by law, the citizens will still consent to regulate their public and civil life by law—this man is wrong in his proposal. For what reason have I said this? For this reason,—because we shall assert that the married people must take their meals at the public messes neither more nor less than they did during the time preceding marriage. When the customs of the public mess first arose in your countries—probably dictated by a war or by some event of equal potency, when you were short of men and in dire straits,—it seemed an astonishing institution; but after you had had experience of these public messes and had been obliged to adopt them, the custom seemed to contribute admirably towards security; and in some such way as that the public mess came to be one of your established institutions.
Clin. That is likely enough.
Ath. So, though this was once, as I said, an astonishing and alarming institution to impose on people, a man who tried to impose it as a law nowadays would not find it an equally difficult task. But the practice which follows on this institution, and which, if carried out, would be really successful,—although at present it nowhere is carried out, and so causes the lawgiver (if he tries) to be practically carding his wool (as the proverb has it) into the fire, and laboring in vain at an endless tale of toils,— this practice it is neither easy to state nor, when stated, to carry into effect.
Clin. Why do you show so much hesitation, Stranger, in mentioning this?
Ath. Listen now, so that we may not spend much time on the matter to no purpose. Everything that takes place in the State, if it participates in order and law, confers all kinds of blessings; but most things that are either without order or badly-ordered counteract the effects of the well-ordered. And it is into this plight that the practice we are discussing has fallen. In your case, Clinias and Megillus, public meals for men are, as I said, rightly and admirably established by a divine necessity, but for women this institution is left, quite wrongly, unprescribed by law, nor are public meals for them brought to the light of day;
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