ΑΘ. ἔτι δὴ τοίνυν τοῖς ἐλευθέροις ἔστιν τρία μαθήματα, λογισμοὶ μὲν καὶ τὰ περὶ ἀριθμοὺς ἓν μάθημα, μετρητικὴ δὲ μήκους καὶ ἐπιπέδου καὶ βάθους ὡς ἓν αὖ δεύτερον, τρίτον δὲ τῆς τῶν ἄστρων περιόδου πρὸς ἄλληλα ὡς πέφυκεν πορεύεσθαι. ταῦτα δὲ σύμπαντα οὐχ ὡς ἀκριβείας ἐχόμενα δεῖ διαπονεῖν τοὺς πολλοὺς ἀλλά τινας ὀλίγους— οὓς δέ, προϊόντες ἐπὶ τῷ τέλει φράσομεν· οὕτω γὰρ πρέπον ἂν εἴη—τῷ πλήθει δέ, ὅσα αὐτῶν ἀναγκαῖα καί πως ὀρθότατα λέγεται μὴ ἐπίστασθαι μὲν τοῖς πολλοῖς αἰσχρόν, διʼ ἀκριβείας δὲ ζητεῖν πάντα οὔτε ῥᾴδιον οὔτε τὸ παράπαν δυνατόν. τὸ δὲ ἀναγκαῖον αὐτῶν οὐχ οἷόν τε ἀποβάλλειν, ἀλλʼ ἔοικεν ὁ τὸν θεὸν πρῶτον παροιμιασάμενος εἰς ταῦτα ἀποβλέψας εἰπεῖν ὡς οὐδὲ θεὸς ἀνάγκῃ μή ποτε φανῇ μαχόμενος, ὅσαι θεῖαί γε, οἶμαι, τῶν γε ἀναγκῶν εἰσίν· ἐπεὶ τῶν γε ἀνθρωπίνων, εἰς ἃς οἱ πολλοὶ βλέποντες λέγουσι τὸ τοιοῦτον, οὗτος πάντων τῶν λόγων εὐηθέστατός ἐστιν μακρῷ.
ΚΛ. τίνες οὖν, ὦ ξένε, αἱ μὴ τοιαῦται ἀνάγκαι τῶν μαθημάτων, θεῖαι δέ;
ΑΘ. δοκῶ μέν, ἃς μή τις πράξας μηδὲ αὖ μαθὼν τὸ παράπαν οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο ἀνθρώποις θεὸς οὐδὲ δαίμων οὐδὲ ἥρως οἷος δυνατὸς ἀνθρώπων ἐπιμέλειαν σὺν σπουδῇ ποιεῖσθαι· πολλοῦ δʼ ἂν δεήσειεν ἄνθρωπός γε θεῖος γενέσθαι μήτε ἓν μήτε δύο μήτε τρία μήθʼ ὅλως ἄρτια καὶ περιττὰ δυνάμενος γιγνώσκειν, μηδὲ ἀριθμεῖν τὸ παράπαν εἰδώς, μηδὲ νύκτα καὶ ἡμέραν διαριθμεῖσθαι δυνατὸς ὤν, σελήνης δὲ καὶ ἡλίου καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἄστρων περιφορᾶς ἀπείρως ἔχων. ταῦτʼ οὖν δὴ πάντα ὡς μὲν οὐκ ἀναγκαῖά ἐστι μαθήματα τῷ μέλλοντι σχεδὸν ὁτιοῦν τῶν καλλίστων μαθημάτων εἴσεσθαι, πολλὴ καὶ μωρία τοῦ διανοήματος· ποῖα δὲ ἕκαστα τούτων καὶ πόσα καὶ πότε μαθητέον, καὶ τί μετὰ τίνος καὶ τί χωρὶς τῶν ἄλλων, καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν τούτων κρᾶσιν, ταῦτά ἐστιν ἃ δεῖ λαβόντα ὀρθῶς πρῶτα, ἐπὶ τἆλλα ἰόντα τούτων ἡγουμένων τῶν μαθημάτων μανθάνειν. οὕτω γὰρ ἀνάγκη φύσει κατείληφεν, ᾗ φαμεν οὐδένα θεῶν οὔτε μάχεσθαι τὰ νῦν οὔτε μαχεῖσθαί ποτε.
ΚΛ. ἔοικέν γε, ὦ ξένε, νῦν οὕτω πως ῥηθέντα ὀρθῶς εἰρῆσθαι καὶ κατὰ φύσιν ἃ λέγεις.
ΑΘ. ἔχει μὲν γὰρ οὕτως, ὦ Κλεινία, χαλεπὸν δὲ αὐτὰ προταξάμενον τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ νομοθετεῖν· ἀλλʼ εἰς ἄλλον, εἰ δοκεῖ, χρόνον ἀκριβέστερον ἂν νομοθετησαίμεθα.
ΚΛ. δοκεῖς ἡμῖν, ὦ ξένε, φοβεῖσθαι τὸ τῆς ἡμετέρας περὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἀπειρίας ἔθος. οὔκουν ὀρθῶς φοβῇ· πειρῶ δὴ λέγειν μηδὲν ἀποκρυπτόμενος ἕνεκα τούτων.
Ath. There still remain, for the freeborn, three branches of learning: of these the first is reckoning and arithmetic; the second is the art of measuring length and surface and solid; the third deals with the course of the stars, and how they naturally travel in relation to one another. All these sciences should not be studied with minute accuracy by the majority of pupils, but only by a select few—and who these are we shall say when we have come near the end,—since that will be the proper place: but for the bulk of the pupils, while it would be shameful for most of them not to understand all those parts of them that are most truly termed “necessary,” yet it is not easy nor even at all possible for every student to go into them minutely. The necessary part of them it is impossible to reject, and probably this is what was in the mind of the original author of the proverb, “Not even God will ever be seen fighting against Necessity,”—meaning by this, I suppose, all kinds of necessity that are divine, since in relation to human necessities (to which most people apply the saying when they quote it) it is of all sayings far and away the most fatuous.
Clin. What necessities then, Stranger, belong to these sciences, that are not of this sort, but divine?
Ath. Those, as I believe, which must be practiced and learned by every god, daemon, and hero, if he is to be competent seriously to supervise mankind: a man certainly would be far from becoming godlike if he were incapable of learning the nature of one and of two, and of even and odd numbers in general, and if he knew nothing at all about counting, and could not count even day and night as distinct objects, and if he were ignorant of the circuit of the sun and moon and all the other stars. To suppose, then, that all these studies are not “necessary” for a man who means to understand almost any single one of the fairest sciences, is a most foolish supposition. The first thing we must grasp correctly is this—which of these branches of study must be learnt, and how many, and at what periods, and which of them in conjunction with which, and which by themselves apart from all others, and the method of combining them; this done, and with these studies as introductory, we may proceed to the learning of the rest. For such is the natural order of procedure as determined by Necessity, against whom, as we declare, no god fights now, nor ever will fight.
Clin. Yes, Stranger, this account of yours does seem to be in accord with nature, and true.
Ath. That is indeed the truth of the matter, Clinias; but to give legal enactment to this program of ours is difficult. We will, if you agree, enact this more precisely on a later occasion.
Clin. You appear to us, Stranger, to be scared by the neglect of such studies which is the habit in our countries; but you are wrong to be scared. Do not be deterred on that account, but try to proceed with your statement.
ΑΘ. φοβοῦμαι μὲν καὶ ταῦτα ἃ σὺ νῦν λέγεις, μᾶλλον δʼ ἔτι δέδοικα τοὺς ἡμμένους μὲν αὐτῶν τούτων τῶν μαθημάτων, κακῶς δʼ ἡμμένους. οὐδαμοῦ γὰρ δεινὸν οὐδὲ σφοδρὸν ἀπειρία τῶν πάντων οὐδὲ μέγιστον κακόν, ἀλλʼ ἡ πολυπειρία καὶ πολυμαθία μετὰ κακῆς ἀγωγῆς γίγνεται πολὺ τούτων μείζων ζημία.
ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
ΑΘ. τοσάδε τοίνυν ἑκάστων χρὴ φάναι μανθάνειν δεῖν τοὺς ἐλευθέρους, ὅσα καὶ πάμπολυς ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ παίδων ὄχλος ἅμα γράμμασι μανθάνει. πρῶτον μὲν γὰρ περὶ λογισμοὺς ἀτεχνῶς παισὶν ἐξηυρημένα μαθήματα μετὰ παιδιᾶς τε καὶ ἡδονῆς μανθάνειν, μήλων τέ τινων διανομαὶ καὶ στεφάνων πλείοσιν ἅμα καὶ ἐλάττοσιν ἁρμοττόντων ἀριθμῶν τῶν αὐτῶν, καὶ πυκτῶν καὶ παλαιστῶν ἐφεδρείας τε καὶ συλλήξεως ἐν μέρει καὶ ἐφεξῆς καὶ ὡς πεφύκασι γίγνεσθαι. καὶ δὴ καὶ παίζοντες, φιάλας ἅμα χρυσοῦ καὶ χαλκοῦ καὶ ἀργύρου καὶ τοιούτων τινῶν ἄλλων κεραννύντες, οἱ δὲ καὶ ὅλας πως διαδιδόντες, ὅπερ εἶπον, εἰς παιδιὰν ἐναρμόττοντες τὰς τῶν ἀναγκαίων ἀριθμῶν χρήσεις, ὠφελοῦσι τοὺς μανθάνοντας εἴς τε τὰς τῶν στρατοπέδων τάξεις καὶ ἀγωγὰς καὶ στρατείας καὶ εἰς οἰκονομίας αὖ, καὶ πάντως χρησιμωτέρους αὐτοὺς αὑτοῖς καὶ ἐγρηγορότας μᾶλλον τοὺς ἀνθρώπους ἀπεργάζονται· μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα ἐν ταῖς μετρήσεσιν, ὅσα ἔχει μήκη καὶ πλάτη καὶ βάθη, περὶ ἅπαντα ταῦτα ἐνοῦσάν τινα φύσει γελοίαν τε καὶ αἰσχρὰν ἄγνοιαν ἐν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις πᾶσιν, ταύτης ἀπαλλάττουσιν.
ΚΛ. ποίαν δὴ καὶ τίνα λέγεις ταύτην;
ΑΘ. ὦ φίλε Κλεινία, παντάπασί γε μὴν καὶ αὐτὸς ἀκούσας ὀψέ ποτε τὸ περὶ ταῦτα ἡμῶν πάθος ἐθαύμασα, καὶ ἔδοξέ μοι τοῦτο οὐκ ἀνθρώπινον ἀλλὰ ὑηνῶν τινων εἶναι μᾶλλον θρεμμάτων, ᾐσχύνθην τε οὐχ ὑπὲρ ἐμαυτοῦ μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ ὑπὲρ ἁπάντων τῶν Ἑλλήνων.
ΚΛ. τοῦ πέρι; λέγʼ ὅτι καὶ φῄς, ὦ ξένε.
ΑΘ. λέγω δή· μᾶλλον δὲ ἐρωτῶν σοι δείξω. καί μοι σμικρὸν ἀπόκριναι· γιγνώσκεις που μῆκος;
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
ΑΘ. τί δέ; πλάτος;
ΚΛ. πάντως.
ΑΘ. ἦ καὶ ταῦτα ὅτι δύʼ ἐστόν, καὶ τρίτον τούτων βάθος;
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ δοκεῖ σοι ταῦτα εἶναι πάντα μετρητὰ πρὸς ἄλληλα;
ΚΛ. ναί.
Ath. I am indeed scared about the habit you mention, but I am still more alarmed about the people who take up these very sciences for study, and do so badly. Complete and absolute ignorance of them is never alarming, nor is it a very great evil; much more mischievous is a wide variety of knowledge and learning combined with bad training.
Clin. That is true.
Ath. One ought to declare, then, that the freeborn children should learn as much of these subjects as the innumerable crowd of children in Egypt learn along with their letters. First, as regards counting, lessons have been invented for the merest infants to learn, by way of play and fun,—modes of dividing up apples and chaplets, so that the same totals are adjusted to larger and smaller groups, and modes of sorting out boxers and wrestlers, in byes and pairs, taking them alternately or consecutively, in their natural order. Moreover, by way of play, the teachers mix together bowls made of gold, bronze, silver and the like, and others distribute them, as I said, by groups of a single kind, adapting the rules of elementary arithmetic to play; and thus they are of service to the pupils for their future tasks of drilling, leading and marching armies, or of household management, and they render them both more helpful in every way to themselves and more alert. The next step of the teachers is to clear away, by lessons in weights and measures, a certain kind of ignorance, both absurd and disgraceful, which is naturally inherent in all men touching lines, surfaces and solids.
Clin. What ignorance do you mean, and of what kind is it?
Ath. My dear Clinias, when I was told quite lately of our condition in regard to this matter, I was utterly astounded myself: it seemed to me to be the condition of guzzling swine rather than of human beings, and I was ashamed, not only of myself, but of all the Greek world.
Clin. Why? Tell us what you mean, Stranger.
Ath. I am doing so. But I can explain it better by putting a question. Answer me briefly: you know what a line is?
Clin. Yes.
Ath. And surface?
Clin. Certainly.
Ath. And do you know that these are two things, and that the third thing, next to these, is the solid?
Clin. I do.
Ath. Do you not, then, believe that all these are commensurable one with another?
Clin. Yes.
ΑΘ. μῆκός τε οἶμαι πρὸς μῆκος, καὶ πλάτος πρὸς πλάτος, καὶ βάθος ὡσαύτως δυνατὸν εἶναι μετρεῖν φύσει.
ΚΛ. σφόδρα γε.
ΑΘ. εἰ δʼ ἔστι μήτε σφόδρα μήτε ἠρέμα δυνατὰ ἔνια, ἀλλὰ τὰ μέν, τὰ δὲ μή, σὺ δὲ πάντα ἡγῇ, πῶς οἴει πρὸς ταῦτα διακεῖσθαι;
ΚΛ. δῆλον ὅτι φαύλως.
ΑΘ. τί δʼ αὖ μῆκός τε καὶ πλάτος πρὸς βάθος, ἢ πλάτος τε καὶ μῆκος πρὸς ἄλληλα; [ὥστε πῶς] ἆρʼ οὐ διανοούμεθα περὶ ταῦτα οὕτως Ἕλληνες πάντες, ὡς δυνατά ἐστι μετρεῖσθαι πρὸς ἄλληλα ἁμῶς γέ πως;
ΚΛ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
ΑΘ. εἰ δʼ ἔστιν αὖ μηδαμῶς μηδαμῇ δυνατά, πάντες δʼ, ὅπερ εἶπον, Ἕλληνες διανοούμεθα ὡς δυνατά, μῶν οὐκ ἄξιον ὑπὲρ πάντων αἰσχυνθέντα εἰπεῖν πρὸς αὐτούς· ὦ βέλτιστοι τῶν Ἑλλήνων, ἓν ἐκείνων τοῦτʼ ἐστὶν ὧν ἔφαμεν αἰσχρὸν μὲν γεγονέναι τὸ μὴ ἐπίστασθαι, τὸ δʼ ἐπίστασθαι τἀναγκαῖα οὐδὲν πάνυ καλόν;
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
ΑΘ. καὶ πρὸς τούτοις γε ἄλλα ἔστιν τούτων συγγενῆ, ἐν οἷς αὖ πολλὰ ἁμαρτήματα ἐκείνων ἀδελφὰ ἡμῖν ἐγγίγνεται τῶν ἁμαρτημάτων.
ΚΛ. ποῖα δή;
ΑΘ. τὰ τῶν μετρητῶν τε καὶ ἀμέτρων πρὸς ἄλληλα ᾗτινι φύσει γέγονεν. ταῦτα γὰρ δὴ σκοποῦντα διαγιγνώσκειν ἀναγκαῖον ἢ παντάπασιν εἶναι φαῦλον, προβάλλοντά τε ἀλλήλοις ἀεί, διατριβὴν τῆς πεττείας πολὺ χαριεστέραν πρεσβυτῶν διατρίβοντα, φιλονικεῖν ἐν ταῖς τούτων ἀξίαισι σχολαῖς.
ΚΛ. ἴσως· ἔοικεν γοῦν ἥ τε πεττεία καὶ ταῦτα ἀλλήλων τὰ μαθήματα οὐ πάμπολυ κεχωρίσθαι.
ΑΘ. ταῦτα τοίνυν ἐγὼ μέν, ὦ Κλεινία, φημὶ τοὺς νέους δεῖν μανθάνειν· καὶ γὰρ οὔτε βλαβερὰ οὔτε χαλεπά ἐστιν, μετὰ δὲ παιδιᾶς ἅμα μανθανόμενα ὠφελήσει μέν, βλάψει δὲ ἡμῖν τὴν πόλιν οὐδέν. εἰ δέ τις ἄλλως λέγει, ἀκουστέον.
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
ΑΘ. ἀλλὰ μὴν ἂν οὕτω ταῦτα ἔχοντα φαίνηται, δῆλον ὡς ἐγκρινοῦμεν αὐτά, μὴ ταύτῃ δὲ φαινόμενα ἔχειν ἀποκριθήσεται.
ΚΛ. δῆλον· τί μήν;
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν νῦν, ὦ ξένε, κείσθω ταῦτα ὡς ὄντα τῶν δεόντων μαθημάτων, ἵνα μὴ διάκενα ἡμῖν ᾖ τὰ τῶν νόμων; κείσθω μέντοι καθάπερ ἐνέχυρα λύσιμα ἐκ τῆς ἄλλης πολιτείας, ἐὰν ἢ τοὺς θέντας ἡμᾶς ἢ καὶ τοὺς θεμένους ὑμᾶς μηδαμῶς φιλοφρονῆται.
ΚΛ. δικαίαν λέγεις τὴν θέσιν.
ΑΘ. ἄστρων δὴ τὸ μετὰ ταῦτα ὅρα τὴν μάθησιν τοῖς νέοις, ἂν ἡμᾶς ἀρέσκῃ λεχθεῖσα ἢ καὶ τοὐναντίον.
ΚΛ. λέγε μόνον.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν θαῦμά γε περὶ αὐτά ἐστιν μέγα καὶ οὐδαμῶς οὐδαμῇ ἀνεκτόν.
Ath. And you believe, I suppose, that line is really commensurable with line, surface with surface, and solid with solid?
Clin. Absolutely.
Ath. But supposing that some of them are neither absolutely nor moderately commensurable, some being commensurable and some not, whereas you regard them all as commensurable,—what do you think of your mental state with respect to them?
Clin. Evidently it is a sorry state.
Ath. Again, as regards the relation of line and surface to solid, or of surface and line to each other—do not all we Greeks imagine that these are somehow commensurable with one another?
Clin. Most certainly.
Ath. But if they cannot be thus measured by any way or means, while, as I said, all we Greeks imagine that they can, are we not right in being ashamed for them all, and saying to them, “O most noble Greeks, this is one of those ‘necessary’ things which we said it is disgraceful not to know, although there is nothing very grand in knowing such things.”
Clin. Of course.
Ath. In addition to these there are other matters, closely related to them, in which we find many errors arising that are nearly akin to the errors mentioned.
Clin. What are they?
Ath. Problems concerning the essential nature of the commensurable and the incommensurable. For students who are not to be absolutely worthless it is necessary to examine these and to distinguish the two kinds, and, by proposing such problems one to another, to compete in a game that is worthy of them,—for this is a much more refined pastime than draughts for old men.
Clin. No doubt. And, after all, draughts and these studies do not seem to be so very far apart.
Ath. I assert, then, Clinias, that these subjects must be learnt by the young; for they are, in truth, neither harmful nor hard, and when learnt by way of play they will do no damage at all to our State, but will do it good. Should anyone disagree, however, we must listen to him.
Clin. Of course.
Ath. Well then, if this is clearly the case, obviously we shall adopt these subjects; but if it seems clearly to be otherwise, we shall rule them out.
Clin. Yes, obviously.
Ath. Shall we not, then, lay these down as necessary subjects of instruction, so that there may be no gap in our code of laws? Yet we ought to lay them down provisionally—like pledges capable of redemption—apart from the rest of our constitution, in case they fail to satisfy either us who enact them or you for whom they are enacted.
Clin. Yes, that is the right way to lay them down.
Ath. Consider next whether or not we approve of the children learning astronomy.
Clin. Just tell us your opinion.
Ath. About this there is a very strange fact—indeed, quite intolerable.
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον δή;
ΑΘ. τὸν μέγιστον θεὸν καὶ ὅλον τὸν κόσμον φαμὲν οὔτε ζητεῖν δεῖν οὔτε πολυπραγμονεῖν τὰς αἰτίας ἐρευνῶντας—οὐ γὰρ οὐδʼ ὅσιον εἶναι—τὸ δὲ ἔοικεν πᾶν τούτου τοὐναντίον γιγνόμενον ὀρθῶς ἂν γίγνεσθαι.
ΚΛ. πῶς εἶπες;
ΑΘ. παράδοξον μὲν τὸ λεγόμενον, καὶ οὐκ ἂν πρεσβύταις τις οἰηθείη πρέπειν· τὸ δὲ ἐπειδάν τίς τι καλόν τε οἰηθῇ καὶ ἀληθὲς μάθημα εἶναι καὶ πόλει συμφέρον καὶ τῷ θεῷ παντάπασι φίλον, οὐδενὶ δὴ τρόπῳ δυνατόν ἐστιν ἔτι μὴ φράζειν.
ΚΛ. εἰκότα λέγεις· ἀλλʼ ἄστρων πέρι μάθημα τί τοιοῦτον ἀνευρήσομεν;
ΑΘ. ὦ ἀγαθοί, καταψευδόμεθα νῦν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν Ἕλληνες πάντες μεγάλων θεῶν, Ἡλίου τε ἅμα καὶ Σελήνης.
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον δὴ ψεῦδος;
ΑΘ. φαμὲν αὐτὰ οὐδέποτε τὴν αὐτὴν ὁδὸν ἰέναι, καὶ ἄλλʼ ἄττα ἄστρα μετὰ τούτων, ἐπονομάζοντες πλανητὰ αὐτά.
ΚΛ. νὴ τὸν Δία, ὦ ξένε, ἀληθὲς τοῦτο λέγεις· ἐν γὰρ δὴ τῷ βίῳ πολλάκις ἑώρακα καὶ αὐτὸς τόν τε Ἑωσφόρον καὶ τὸν Ἕσπερον καὶ ἄλλους τινὰς οὐδέποτε ἰόντας εἰς τὸν αὐτὸν δρόμον ἀλλὰ πάντῃ πλανωμένους, τὸν δὲ ἥλιόν που καὶ σελήνην δρῶντας ταῦθʼ ἃ ἀεὶ πάντες συνεπιστάμεθα.
ΑΘ. ταῦτʼ ἔστι τοίνυν, ὦ Μέγιλλέ τε καὶ Κλεινία, νῦν ἃ δή φημι δεῖν περὶ θεῶν τῶν κατʼ οὐρανὸν τούς γε ἡμετέρους πολίτας τε καὶ τοὺς νέους τὸ μέχρι τοσούτου μαθεῖν περὶ ἁπάντων τούτων, μέχρι τοῦ μὴ βλασφημεῖν περὶ αὐτά, εὐφημεῖν δὲ ἀεὶ θύοντάς τε καὶ ἐν εὐχαῖς εὐχομένους εὐσεβῶς.
ΚΛ. τοῦτο μὲν ὀρθόν, εἴ γε πρῶτον μὲν δυνατόν ἐστιν ὃ λέγεις μαθεῖν· εἶτα, εἰ μὴ λέγομέν τι περὶ αὐτῶν ὀρθῶς νῦν, μαθόντες δὲ λέξομεν, συγχωρῶ κἀγὼ τό γε τοσοῦτον καὶ τοιοῦτον ὂν μαθητέον εἶναι. ταῦτʼ οὖν ὡς ἔχοντά ἐσθʼ οὕτω, πειρῶ σὺ μὲν ἐξηγεῖσθαι πάντως, ἡμεῖς δὲ συνέπεσθαί σοι μανθάνοντες.
ΑΘ. ἀλλʼ ἔστι μὲν οὐ ῥᾴδιον ὃ λέγω μαθεῖν, οὐδʼ αὖ παντάπασι χαλεπόν, οὐδέ γέ τινος χρόνου παμπόλλου. τεκμήριον δέ· ἐγὼ τούτων οὔτε νέος οὔτε πάλαι ἀκηκοὼς σφῷν ἂν νῦν οὐκ ἐν πολλῷ χρόνῳ δηλῶσαι δυναίμην. καίτοι χαλεπά γε ὄντα οὐκ ἄν ποτε οἷός τʼ ἦν δηλοῦν τηλικούτοις οὖσι τηλικοῦτος.
Clin. What is that?
Ath. We commonly assert that men ought not to enquire concerning the greatest god and about the universe, nor busy themselves in searching out their causes, since it is actually impious to do so; whereas the right course, in all probability, is exactly the opposite.
Clin. Explain yourself.
Ath. My statement sounds paradoxical, and it might be thought to be unbecoming in an old man; but the fact is that, when a man believes that a science is fair and true and beneficial to the State and altogether well-pleasing to God, he cannot possibly refrain any longer from declaring it.
Clin. That is reasonable; but what science of this kind shall we find on the subject of stars?
Ath. At present, my good sirs, nearly all we Greeks say what is false about those mighty deities, the Sun and Moon.
Clin. What is the falsehood?
Ath. We assert that they, and some other stars along with them, never travel along the same path; and we call them “planets.”
Clin. Yes, by Zeus, Stranger, that is true; for I, during my life, have often noticed how Phosphorus and Hesperus and other stars never travel on the same course, but “wander” all ways; but as to the Sun and Moon, we all know that they are constantly doing this.
Ath. It is precisely for this reason, Megillus and Clinias, that I now assert that our citizens and our children ought to learn so much concerning all these facts about the gods of Heaven as to enable them not to blaspheme about them, but always to speak piously both at sacrifices and when they pray reverently at prayers.
Clin. You are right, provided that, in the first place, it is possible to learn the subject you mention; and provided also that learning will make us correct any mistakes we may be making about them now,—then I, too, agree that a subject of such importance should be learned. This being so, do you make every effort to expound the matter, and we will endeavor to follow you and learn.
Ath. Well, the matter I speak of is not an easy one to learn; nor yet is it altogether difficult and demanding very prolonged study. In proof of this—although I was told of it neither in the days of my youth nor long ago, I may be able to explain it to you in a comparatively short time. Whereas, if it had been a difficult subject, I should never have been able to explain it to you at all—I at my age to you at yours.
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