ΑΘ. καλῶς ὑπέλαβες· αὐτὸ γὰρ τοῦτο ἦν τὸ παρʼ ἐμοῦ λεχθέν, ὅτι τέχνην ἐγὼ πρὸς τοῦτον τὸν νόμον ἔχοιμι τοῦ κατὰ φύσιν χρῆσθαι τῇ τῆς παιδογονίας συνουσίᾳ, τοῦ μὲν ἄρρενος ἀπεχομένους, μὴ κτείνοντάς τε ἐκ προνοίας τὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένος, μηδʼ εἰς πέτρας τε καὶ λίθους σπείροντας, οὗ μήποτε φύσιν τὴν αὑτοῦ ῥιζωθὲν λήψεται γόνιμον, ἀπεχομένους δὲ ἀρούρας θηλείας πάσης ἐν ᾗ μὴ βούλοιο ἄν σοι φύεσθαι τὸ σπαρέν. ὁ δὴ νόμος οὗτος διηνεκὴς μὲν γενόμενος ἅμα καὶ κρατήσας, καθάπερ νῦν περὶ τὰς τῶν γονέων συμμείξεις κρατεῖ, ἐὰν καὶ περὶ τὰς ἄλλας νικήσῃ δικαίως, μυρία ἀγαθὰ ἔχει. κατὰ φύσιν μὲν γὰρ πρῶτον κεῖται, λύττης δὲ ἐρωτικῆς καὶ μανίας καὶ μοιχειῶν πασῶν καὶ πωμάτων καὶ σίτων εἴργεσθαι ποιεῖ τῶν ἀμέτρων πάντων, γυναιξί τε αὑτῶν οἰκείους εἶναι φίλους· ἄλλα τε πάμπολλα ἀγαθὰ γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, εἰ τοῦ νόμου τις τούτου δύναιτο ἐγκρατὴς εἶναι. τάχα δʼ ἂν ἡμῖν τις παραστὰς ἀνὴρ σφοδρὸς καὶ νέος, πολλοῦ σπέρματος μεστός, ἀκούων τιθεμένου τοῦ νόμου λοιδορήσειεν ἂν ὡς ἀνόητα καὶ ἀδύνατα τιθέντων νόμιμα, καὶ βοῆς πάντα ἐμπλήσειε· πρὸς ἃ δὴ καὶ βλέψας ἐγὼ τοῦτο εἶπον τὸ ῥῆμα, ὥς τινα τέχνην κεκτῄμην, τῇ μὲν ῥᾴστην ἁπασῶν, τῇ δὲ χαλεπωτάτην, πρὸς τὸ τοῦτον τεθέντα ἐμμεῖναι τὸν νόμον. νοῆσαι μὲν γὰρ δὴ ῥᾷστον ὡς δυνατόν τέ ἐστιν καὶ ὅπῃ—φαμὲν γὰρ δὴ καθιερωθὲν τοῦτο ἱκανῶς τὸ νόμιμον πᾶσαν ψυχὴν δουλώσεσθαι καὶ παντάπασιν μετὰ φόβου ποιήσειν πείθεσθαι τοῖς τεθεῖσιν νόμοις—ἀλλὰ γὰρ εἰς τοῦτο προβέβηκε νῦν, ὥστʼ οὐδʼ ἂν τότε γενέσθαι δοκεῖ, καθάπερ τὸ τῶν συσσιτίων ἐπιτήδευμα ἀπιστεῖται μὴ δυνατὸν εἶναι δύνασθαι διὰ βίου πόλιν ὅλην ζῆν πράττουσαν τοῦτο, ἐλεγχθὲν δʼ ἔργῳ καὶ γενόμενον παρʼ ὑμῖν, ὅμως ἔτι τό γε γυναικῶν οὐδὲ ἐν ταῖς ὑμετέραις πόλεσιν δοκεῖ φύσιν ἔχειν γίγνεσθαι. ταύτῃ δʼ αὖ, διὰ τὴν τῆς ἀπιστίας ῥώμην, εἴρηκα ἀμφότερα ταῦτα εἶναι παγχάλεπα μεῖναι κατὰ νόμον.
ΜΕ. ὀρθῶς γε σὺ λέγων.
ΑΘ. ὡς δʼ οὖν οὐκ ἔστιν ὑπὲρ ἄνθρωπον, οἷόν τε δὲ γενέσθαι, βούλεσθε ὑμῖν πειραθῶ τινα λόγον ἐχόμενον πιθανότητος εἰπεῖν τινος;
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
ΑΘ. πότερον οὖν τις ἀφροδισίων ῥᾷον ἂν ἀπέχοιτο, καὶ τὸ ταχθὲν ἐθέλοι περὶ αὐτὰ μετρίως ποιεῖν, εὖ τὸ σῶμα ἔχων καὶ μὴ ἰδιωτικῶς, ἢ φαύλως;
ΚΛ. πολύ που μᾶλλον μὴ ἰδιωτικῶς.
Ath. A very proper observation. That was precisely the reason why I stated that in reference to this law I know of a device for making a natural use of reproductive intercourse,—on the one hand, by abstaining from the male and not slaying of set purpose the human stock, nor sowing seed on rocks and stones where it can never take root and have fruitful increase; and, on the other hand, by abstaining from every female field in which you would not desire the seed to spring up. This law, when it has become permanent and prevails—if it has rightly become dominant in other cases, just as it prevails now regarding intercourse with parents,—is the cause of countless blessings. For, in the first place, it follows the dictates of nature, and it serves to keep men from sexual rage and frenzy and all kinds of fornication, and from all excess in meats and drinks, and it ensures in husbands fondness for their own wives: other blessings also would ensue, in infinite number, if one could make sure of this law. Possibly, however, some young bystander, rash and of superabundant virility, on hearing of the passing of this law, would denounce us for making foolish and impossible rules, and fill all the place with his outcries; and it was in view of this that I made the statement that I knew of a device to secure the permanence of this law when passed which is at once the easiest of all devices and the hardest. For while it is very easy to perceive that this is possible, and how it is possible—since we affirm that this rule, when duly consecrated, will dominate all souls, and cause them to dread the laws enacted and yield them entire obedience,—yet it has now come to this, that men think that, even so, it is unlikely to come about,—just in the same way as, in the case of the institution of public meals, people refuse to believe that it is possible for the whole State to be able to continue this practice constantly; and that, too, in spite of the evidence of facts and the existence of the practice in your countries; and even there, as applied to women, the practice is regarded as non-natural. Thus it was that, because of the strength of this unbelief, I said that it is most difficult to get both these matters permanently legalized.
Meg. And you were right in that.
Ath. Still, to show that it is not beyond the power of man, but possible, would you like me to try to state an argument which is not without some plausibility?
Clin. Certainly.
Ath. Would a man be more ready to abstain from sex-indulgence, and to consent to carry out the law on this matter soberly, if he had his body not ill-trained, but in good condition, than if he had it in bad condition?
Clin. He would be much more ready if it were not ill-trained.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐκ ἴσμεν τὸν Ταραντῖνον Ἴκκον ἀκοῇ διὰ τὸν Ὀλυμπίασί τε ἀγῶνα καὶ τούς γε ἄλλους; ὧν διὰ φιλονικίαν, καὶ τέχνην καὶ τὸ μετὰ τοῦ σωφρονεῖν ἀνδρεῖον ἐν τῇ ψυχῇ κεκτημένος, ὡς λόγος, οὔτε τινὸς πώποτε γυναικὸς ἥψατο οὐδʼ αὖ παιδὸς ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ τῆς ἀσκήσεως ἀκμῇ· καὶ δὴ καὶ Κρίσωνα καὶ Ἀστύλον καὶ Διόπομπον καὶ ἄλλους παμπόλλους ὁ αὐτός που λόγος ἔχει. καίτοι τῶν γʼ ἐμῶν καὶ σῶν πολιτῶν, ὦ Κλεινία, πολὺ κάκιον ἦσαν πεπαιδευμένοι τὰς ψυχάς, τὰ δὲ σώματα πολὺ μᾶλλον σφριγῶντες.
ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ ταῦτα λέγεις ὅτι σφόδρα ὑπὸ τῶν παλαιῶν ἐστιν εἰρημένα περὶ τούτων τῶν ἀθλητῶν ὡς ὄντως ποτὲ γενόμενα.
ΑΘ. τί οὖν; οἱ μὲν ἄρα νίκης ἕνεκα πάλης καὶ δρόμων καὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἐτόλμησαν ἀπέχεσθαι λεγομένου πράγματος ὑπὸ τῶν πολλῶν εὐδαίμονος, οἱ δὲ ἡμέτεροι παῖδες ἀδυνατήσουσι καρτερεῖν πολὺ καλλίονος ἕνεκα νίκης, ἣν ἡμεῖς καλλίστην ἐκ παίδων πρὸς αὐτοὺς λέγοντες ἐν μύθοις τε καὶ ἐν ῥήμασιν καὶ ἐν μέλεσιν ᾄδοντες, ὡς εἰκός, κηλήσομεν;
ΚΛ. ποίας;
ΑΘ. τῆς τῶν ἡδονῶν νίκης ἐγκρατεῖς ὄντας ἂν ζῆν εὐδαιμόνως, ἡττωμένους δὲ τοὐναντίον ἅπαν. πρὸς δὲ τούτοις ἔτι φόβος ὁ τοῦ μηδαμῇ μηδαμῶς ὅσιον αὐτὸ εἶναι δύναμιν ἡμῖν οὐκ ἄρα ἕξει κρατεῖν ὧν ἄλλοι κεκρατήκασι τούτων ὄντες χείρονες;
ΚΛ. εἰκὸς γοῦν.
ΑΘ. ἐπειδὴ τοίνυν ἐνταῦθά ἐσμεν τούτου τοῦ νομίμου πέρι, διὰ κάκην δὲ τὴν τῶν πολλῶν εἰς ἀπορίαν ἐπέσομεν, φημὶ τὸ μὲν ἡμέτερον νόμιμον ἀτεχνῶς δεῖν περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων πορεύεσθαι λέγον ὡς οὐ δεῖ χείρους ἡμῖν εἶναι τοὺς πολίτας ὀρνίθων καὶ ἄλλων θηρίων πολλῶν, οἳ κατὰ μεγάλας ἀγέλας γεννηθέντες, μέχρι μὲν παιδογονίας ἠίθεοι καὶ ἀκήρατοι γάμων τε ἁγνοὶ ζῶσιν, ὅταν δʼ εἰς τοῦτο ἡλικίας ἔλθωσι, συνδυασθέντες ἄρρην θηλείᾳ κατὰ χάριν καὶ θήλεια ἄρρενι, τὸν λοιπὸν χρόνον ὁσίως καὶ δικαίως ζῶσιν, ἐμμένοντες βεβαίως ταῖς πρώταις τῆς φιλίας ὁμολογίαις· δεῖν δὴ θηρίων γε αὐτοὺς ἀμείνους εἶναι. ἐὰν δʼ οὖν ὑπὸ τῶν ἄλλων Ἑλλήνων καὶ βαρβάρων τῶν πλείστων διαφθείρωνται, τὴν λεγομένην ἄτακτον Ἀφροδίτην ἐν αὐτοῖς ὁρῶντές τε καὶ ἀκούοντες μέγιστον δυναμένην, καὶ οὕτω δὴ μὴ δυνατοὶ γίγνωνται κατακρατεῖν, δεύτερον νόμον ἐπʼ αὐτοῖς μηχανᾶσθαι χρὴ τοὺς νομοφύλακας νομοθέτας γενομένους.
Ath. Do we not know by report about Iccus of Tarentum, because of his contests at Olympia and elsewhere,— how, spurred on by ambition and skill, and possessing courage combined with temperance in his soul, during all the period of his training (as the story goes) he never touched a woman, nor yet a boy? And the same story is told about Crison and Astylus and Diopompus and very many others. And yet, Clinias, these men were not only much worse educated in soul than your citizens and mine, but they also possessed much more sexual vigor of body.
Clin. That this really happened in the case of these athletes is indeed, as you say, confidently affirmed by the ancients.
Ath. Well then, if those men had the fortitude to abstain from that which most men count bliss for the sake of victory in wrestling, running, and the like, shall our boys be unable to hold out in order to win a much nobler victory—that which is the noblest of all victories, as we shall tell them from their childhood’s days, charming them into belief, we hope, by tales and sentences and songs.
Clin. What victory?
Ath. Victory over pleasures,—which if they win, they will live a life of bliss, but if they lose, the very opposite. Furthermore, will not the dread that this is a thing utterly unholy give them power to master those impulses which men inferior to themselves have mastered?
Clin. It is certainly reasonable to suppose so.
Ath. Now that we have reached this point in regard to our regulation, but have fallen into a strait because of the cowardice of the many, I maintain that our regulation on this head must go forward and proclaim that our citizens must not be worse than fowls and many other animals which are produced in large broods, and which live chaste and celibate lives without sexual intercourse until they arrive at the age for breeding; and when they reach this age they pair off, as instinct moves them, male with female and female with male; and thereafter they live in a way that is holy and just, remaining constant to their first contracts of love: surely our citizens should at least be better than these animals. If, however, they become corrupted by most of the other Hellenes or barbarians, through seeing and hearing that among them the “lawless Love” (as it is called) is of very great power, and thus become unable to overcome it, then the Law-wardens, acting as lawgivers, must devise for them a second law.
ΚΛ. τίνα δὴ συμβουλεύεις αὐτοῖς τίθεσθαι νόμον, ἐὰν ὁ νῦν τιθέμενος αὐτοὺς ἐκφύγῃ;
ΑΘ. δῆλον ὅτι τὸν ἐχόμενον τούτου δεύτερον, ὦ Κλεινία.
ΚΛ. τίνα λέγεις;
ΑΘ. ἀγύμναστον ὅτι μάλιστα ποιεῖν τὴν τῶν ἡδονῶν ῥώμην ἦν, τὴν ἐπίχυσιν καὶ τροφὴν αὐτῆς διὰ πόνων ἄλλοσε τρέποντα τοῦ σώματος. εἴη δʼ ἂν τοῦτο, εἰ ἀναίδεια μὴ ἐνείη τῇ τῶν ἀφροδισίων χρήσει· σπανίῳ γὰρ αὖ τῷ τοιούτῳ διʼ αἰσχύνην χρώμενοι, ἀσθενεστέραν ἂν αὐτὴν δέσποιναν κτῷντο ὀλιγάκις χρώμενοι. τὸ δὴ λανθάνειν τούτων δρῶντά τι καλὸν παρʼ αὐτοῖς ἔστω, νόμιμον ἔθει καὶ ἀγράφῳ νομισθὲν νόμῳ, τὸ δὲ μὴ λανθάνειν αἰσχρόν, ἀλλʼ οὐ τὸ μὴ πάντως δρᾶν. οὕτω τοῦτο αἰσχρὸν αὖ καὶ καλὸν δευτέρως ἂν ἡμῖν ἐν νόμῳ γενόμενον κέοιτο, ὀρθότητα ἔχον δευτέραν, καὶ τοὺς τὰς φύσεις διεφθαρμένους, οὓς ἥττους αὑτῶν προσαγορεύομεν, ἓν γένος ὄν, περιλαβόντα τρία γένη βιάζοιτʼ ἂν μὴ παρανομεῖν.
ΚΛ. ποῖα δή;
ΑΘ. τό τε θεοσεβὲς ἅμα καὶ φιλότιμον καὶ τὸ μὴ τῶν σωμάτων ἀλλὰ τῶν τρόπων τῆς ψυχῆς ὄντων καλῶν γεγονὸς ἐν ἐπιθυμίᾳ. ταῦτα δὴ καθάπερ ἴσως ἐν μύθῳ τὰ νῦν λεγόμενʼ ἐστὶν εὐχαί, πολύ γε μὴν ἄριστα, εἴπερ γίγνοιτο, ἐν πάσαις πόλεσι γίγνοιτο ἄν. τάχα δʼ ἄν, εἰ θεὸς ἐθέλοι, κἂν δυοῖν θάτερα βιασαίμεθα περὶ ἐρωτικῶν, ἢ μηδένα τολμᾶν μηδενὸς ἅπτεσθαι τῶν γενναίων ἅμα καὶ ἐλευθέρων πλὴν γαμετῆς ἑαυτοῦ γυναικός, ἄθυτα δὲ παλλακῶν σπέρματα καὶ νόθα μὴ σπείρειν, μηδὲ ἄγονα ἀρρένων παρὰ φύσιν· ἢ τὸ μὲν τῶν ἀρρένων πάμπαν ἀφελοίμεθʼ ἄν, τὸ δὲ γυναικῶν, εἴ τις συγγίγνοιτό τινι πλὴν ταῖς μετὰ θεῶν καὶ ἱερῶν γάμων ἐλθούσαις εἰς τὴν οἰκίαν, ὠνηταῖς εἴτε ἄλλῳ ὁτῳοῦν τρόπῳ κτηταῖς, μὴ λανθάνων ἄνδρας τε καὶ γυναῖκας πάσας, τάχʼ ἂν ἄτιμον αὐτὸν τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει ἐπαίνων νομοθετοῦντες ὀρθῶς ἂν δόξαιμεν νομοθετεῖν, ὡς ὄντως ὄντα ξενικόν.
Clin. What law do you recommend them to make if that which is now proposed slips out of their grasp?
Ath. Evidently that law which comes next to it as second.
Clin. What is that?
Ath. One ought to put the force of pleasures as far as possible out of gear, by diverting its increase and nutriment to another part of the body by means of exercise. This would come about if indulgence in sexual intercourse were devoid of shamelessness; for if, owing to shame, people indulged in it but seldom, in consequence of this rare indulgence they would find it a less tyrannical mistress. Let them, therefore, regard privacy in such actions as honorable—sanctioned both by custom and by unwritten law; and want of privacy—yet not the entire avoidance of such actions—as dishonorable. Thus we shall have a second standard of what is honorable and shameful established by law and possessing a second degree of rectitude; and those people of depraved character, whom we describe as “self-inferior,” and who form a single kind, shall be hemmed in by three kinds of force and compelled to refrain from law-breaking.
Clin. What kinds?
Ath. That of godly fear, and that of love of honor, and that which is desirous of fair forms of soul, not fair bodies. The things I now mention are, perhaps, like the visionary ideals in a story; yet in very truth, if only they were realized, they would prove a great blessing in every State. Possibly, should God so grant, we might forcibly effect one of two things in this matter of sex-relations,—either that no one should venture to touch any of the noble and freeborn save his own wedded wife, nor sow any unholy and bastard seed in fornication, nor any unnatural and barren seed in sodomy,—or else we should entirely abolish love for males, and in regard to that for women, if we enact a law that any man who has intercourse with any women save those who have been brought to his house under the sanction of Heaven and holy marriage, whether purchased or otherwise acquired, if detected in such intercourse by any man or woman, shall be disqualified from any civic commendation, as being really an alien,— probably such a law would be approved as right.
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