ΑΘ. καὶ τῶν μὲν πολλῶν οὐ θαυμαστὸν ἐπιθυμιῶν εἰ κρατοῖ τὰ πρόσθεν νόμιμα ταχθέντα—τὸ γὰρ μὴ πλουτεῖν τε ἐξεῖναι ὑπερβαλλόντως ἀγαθὸν πρὸς τὸ σωφρονεῖν οὐ σμικρόν, καὶ πᾶσα ἡ παιδεία μετρίους πρὸς τὰ τοιαῦτʼ εἴληφεν νόμους, καὶ πρὸς τούτοις ἡ τῶν ἀρχόντων ὄψις διηναγκασμένη μὴ ἀποβλέπειν ἄλλοσε, τηρεῖν δʼ ἀεί, τοὺς νέους τʼ αὐτούς, πρὸς μὲν τὰς ἄλλας ἐπιθυμίας, ὅσα γε ἀνθρώπινα, μέτρον ἔχει—τὰ δὲ δὴ τῶν ἐρώτων παίδων τε ἀρρένων καὶ θηλειῶν καὶ γυναικῶν ἀνδρῶν καὶ ἀνδρῶν γυναικῶν ὅθεν δὴ μυρία γέγονεν ἀνθρώποις ἰδίᾳ καὶ ὅλαις πόλεσιν, πῶς τις τοῦτο διευλαβοῖτʼ ἄν, καὶ τί τεμὼν φάρμακον τούτοις ἑκάστοις τοῦ τοιούτου κινδύνου διαφυγὴν εὑρήσει; πάντως οὐ ῥᾴδιον, ὦ Κλεινία. καὶ γὰρ οὖν πρὸς μὲν ἄλλα οὐκ ὀλίγα ἡ Κρήτη τε ἡμῖν ὅλη καὶ ἡ Λακεδαίμων βοήθειαν ἐπιεικῶς οὐ σμικρὰν συμβάλλονται τιθεῖσι νόμους ἀλλοίους τῶν πολλῶν τρόπων, περὶ δὲ τῶν ἐρώτων—αὐτοὶ γάρ ἐσμεν—ἐναντιοῦνται παντάπασιν. εἰ γάρ τις ἀκολουθῶν τῇ φύσει θήσει τὸν πρὸ τοῦ Λαΐου νόμον, λέγων ὡς ὀρθῶς εἶχεν τὸ τῶν ἀρρένων καὶ νέων μὴ κοινωνεῖν καθάπερ θηλειῶν πρὸς μεῖξιν ἀφροδισίων, μάρτυρα παραγόμενος τὴν τῶν θηρίων φύσιν καὶ δεικνὺς πρὸς τὰ τοιαῦτα οὐχ ἁπτόμενον ἄρρενα ἄρρενος διὰ τὸ μὴ φύσει τοῦτο εἶναι, τάχʼ ἂν χρῷτο πιθανῷ λόγῳ, καὶ ταῖς ὑμετέραις πόλεσιν οὐδαμῶς συμφωνοῖ. πρὸς δὲ τούτοις, ὃ διὰ παντός φαμεν δεῖν τὸν νομοθέτην τηρεῖν, τοῦτο ἐν τούτοις οὐχ ὁμολογεῖ. ζητοῦμεν γὰρ ἀεὶ δὴ τί τῶν τιθεμένων πρὸς ἀρετὴν φέρει καὶ τί μή· φέρε δή, τοῦτο ἐὰν συγχωρῶμεν καλὸν ἢ μηδαμῶς αἰσχρὸν νομοθετεῖσθαι τὰ νῦν, τί μέρος ἡμῖν συμβάλλοιτʼ ἂν πρὸς ἀρετήν; πότερον ἐν τῇ τοῦ πεισθέντος ψυχῇ γιγνόμενον ἐμφύσεται τὸ τῆς ἀνδρείας ἦθος, ἢ ἐν τῇ τοῦ πείσαντος τὸ τῆς σώφρονος ἰδέας γένος; ἢ ταῦτα μὲν οὐδεὶς ἂν πεισθείη ποτέ, μᾶλλον δὲ ἅπαν τούτου τοὐναντίον, τοῦ μὲν ταῖς ἡδοναῖς ὑπείκοντος καὶ καρτερεῖν οὐ δυναμένου ψέξει πᾶς τὴν μαλακίαν, τοῦ δʼ εἰς μίμησιν τοῦ θήλεος ἰόντος τὴν τῆς εἰκόνος ὁμοιότητα ἆρʼ οὐ μέμψεται; τίς οὖν ἀνθρώπων τοῦτο ὂν τοιοῦτον νομοθετήσει; σχεδὸν οὐδείς, ἔχων γε ἐν τῷ νῷ νόμον ἀληθῆ. πῶς οὖν φαμεν ἀληθὲς τοῦτο εἶναι;
Ath. That the laws previously ordained serve to repress the majority of desires is not surprising; thus, for example, the proscription of excessive wealth is of no small benefit for promoting temperance, and the whole of our education-system contains laws useful for the same purpose; in addition to this, there is the watchful eye of the magistrates, trained to fix its gaze always on this point and to keep constant watch on the young people. These means, then, are sufficient (so far as any human means suffice) to deal with the other desires. But when we come to the amorous passions of children of both sexes and of men for women and women for men,— passions which have been the cause of countless woes both to individuals and to whole States,—how is one to guard against these, or what remedy can one apply so as to find a way of escape in all such cases from a danger such as this? It is extremely difficult, Clinias. For whereas, in regard to other matters not a few, Crete generally and Lacedaemon furnish us (and rightly) with no little assistance in the framing of laws which differ from those in common use,—in regard to the passions of sex (for we are alone by ourselves) they contradict us absolutely. If we were to follow in nature’s steps and enact that law which held good before the days of Laius, declaring that it is right to refrain from indulging in the same kind of intercourse with men and boys as with women, and adducing as evidence thereof the nature of wild beasts, and pointing out how male does not touch male for this purpose, since it is unnatural,—in all this we would probably be using an argument neither convincing nor in any way consonant with your States. Moreover, that object which, as we affirm, the lawgiver ought always to have in view does not agree with these practices. For the enquiry we always make is this —which of the proposed laws tends toward virtue and which not. Come then, suppose we grant that this practice is now legalized, and that it is noble and in no way ignoble, how far would it promote virtue? Will it engender in the soul of him who is seduced a courageous character, or in the soul of the seducer the quality of temperance? Nobody would ever believe this; on the contrary, as all men will blame the cowardice of the man who always yields to pleasures and is never able to hold out against them, will they not likewise reproach that man who plays the woman’s part with the resemblance he bears to his model? Is there any man, then, who will ordain by law a practice like that? Not one, I should say, if he has a notion of what true law is. What then do we declare to be the truth about this matter?
ΑΘ. τὴν τῆς φιλίας τε καὶ ἐπιθυμίας ἅμα καὶ τῶν λεγομένων ἐρώτων φύσιν ἰδεῖν ἀναγκαῖον, εἰ μέλλει τις ταῦτα ὀρθῶς διανοηθήσεσθαι· δύο γὰρ ὄντα αὐτά, καὶ ἐξ ἀμφοῖν τρίτον ἄλλο εἶδος, ἓν ὄνομα περιλαβὸν πᾶσαν ἀπορίαν καὶ σκότον ἀπεργάζεται.
ΚΛ. πῶς;
ΑΘ. φίλον μέν που καλοῦμεν ὅμοιον ὁμοίῳ κατʼ ἀρετὴν καὶ ἴσον ἴσῳ, φίλον δʼ αὖ καὶ τὸ δεόμενον τοῦ πεπλουτηκότος, ἐναντίον ὂν τῷ γένει· ὅταν δὲ ἑκάτερον γίγνηται σφοδρόν, ἔρωτα ἐπονομάζομεν.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
ΑΘ. φιλία τοίνυν ἡ μὲν ἀπὸ ἐναντίων δεινὴ καὶ ἀγρία καὶ τὸ κοινὸν οὐ πολλάκις ἔχουσα ἐν ἡμῖν, ἡ δʼ ἐκ τῶν ὁμοίων ἥμερός τε καὶ κοινὴ διὰ βίου· μεικτὴ δὲ ἐκ τούτων γενομένη πρῶτον μὲν καταμαθεῖν οὐ ῥᾳδία, τί ποτε βούλοιτʼ ἂν αὑτῷ γενέσθαι τὸν τρίτον ἔρωτά τις ἔχων τοῦτον, ἔπειτα εἰς τοὐναντίον ὑπʼ ἀμφοῖν ἑλκόμενος ἀπορεῖ, τοῦ μὲν κελεύοντος τῆς ὥρας ἅπτεσθαι, τοῦ δὲ ἀπαγορεύοντος. ὁ μὲν γὰρ τοῦ σώματος ἐρῶν, καὶ τῆς ὥρας καθάπερ ὀπώρας πεινῶν, ἐμπλησθῆναι παρακελεύεται ἑαυτῷ, τιμὴν οὐδεμίαν ἀπονέμων τῷ τῆς ψυχῆς ἤθει τοῦ ἐρωμένου· ὁ δὲ πάρεργον μὲν τὴν τοῦ σώματος ἐπιθυμίαν ἔχων, ὁρῶν δὲ μᾶλλον ἢ ἐρῶν, τῇ ψυχῇ δὲ ὄντως τῆς ψυχῆς ἐπιτεθυμηκώς, ὕβριν ἥγηται τὴν περὶ τὸ σῶμα τοῦ σώματος πλησμονήν, τὸ σῶφρον δὲ καὶ ἀνδρεῖον καὶ μεγαλοπρεπὲς καὶ τὸ φρόνιμον αἰδούμενος ἅμα καὶ σεβόμενος, ἁγνεύειν ἀεὶ μεθʼ ἁγνεύοντος τοῦ ἐρωμένου βούλοιτʼ ἄν· ὁ δὲ μειχθεὶς ἐξ ἀμφοῖν τρίτος ἔρως οὗτός ἐσθʼ ὃν νῦν διεληλύθαμεν ὡς τρίτον. ὄντων δὲ τούτων τοσούτων, πότερον ἅπαντας δεῖ κωλύειν τὸν νόμον, ἀπείργοντα μὴ γίγνεσθαι ἐν ἡμῖν, ἢ δῆλον ὅτι τὸν μὲν ἀρετῆς ὄντα καὶ τὸν νέον ἐπιθυμοῦντα ὡς ἄριστον γίγνεσθαι βουλοίμεθʼ ἂν ἡμῖν ἐν τῇ πόλει ἐνεῖναι, τοὺς δὲ δύο, εἰ δυνατὸν εἴη, κωλύοιμεν ἄν; ἢ πῶς λέγομεν, ὦ φίλε Μέγιλλε;
ΜΕ. πάντῃ τοι καλῶς, ὦ ξένε, περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων εἴρηκας τὰ νῦν.
ΑΘ. ἔοικά γε, ὅπερ καὶ ἐτόπαζον, τυχεῖν τῆς σῆς, ὦ φίλε, συνῳδίας· τὸν δὲ νόμον ὑμῶν, ὅτι νοεῖ περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα, οὐδέν με ἐξετάζειν δεῖ, δέχεσθαι δὲ τὴν τῷ λόγῳ συγχώρησιν. Κλεινίᾳ δὲ μετὰ ταῦτα καὶ εἰς αὖθις περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων πειράσομαι ἐπᾴδων πείθειν. τὸ δέ μοι δεδομένον ὑπὸ σφῷν ἴτω, καὶ διεξέλθωμεν πάντως τοὺς νόμους.
ΜΕ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις.
Ath. It is necessary to discern the real nature of friendship and desire and love (so-called), if we are to determine them rightly; for what causes the utmost confusion and obscurity is the fact that this single term embraces these two things, and also a third kind compounded of them both.
Clin. How so?
Ath. Friendship is the name we give to the affection of like for like, in point of goodness, and of equal for equal; and also to that of the needy for the rich, which is of the opposite kind; and when either of these feelings is intense we call it “love.”
Clin. True.
Ath. The friendship which occurs between opposites is terrible and fierce and seldom reciprocal amongst men, while that based on similarity is gentle and reciprocal throughout life. The kind which arises from a blend of these presents difficulties,—first, to discover what the man affected by this third kind of love really desires to obtain, and, in the next place, because the man himself is at a loss, being dragged in opposite directions by the two tendencies,—of which the one bids him to enjoy the bloom of his beloved, while the other forbids him. For he that is in love with the body and hungering after its bloom, as it were that of a ripening peach, urges himself on to take his fill of it, paying no respect to the disposition of the beloved; whereas he that counts bodily desire as but secondary, and puts longing looks in place of love, with soul lusting really for soul, regards the bodily satisfaction of the body as an outrage, and, reverently worshipping temperance, courage, nobility and wisdom, will desire to live always chastely in company with the chaste object of his love. But the love which is blended of these two kinds is that which we have described just now as third. Since, then, love has so many varieties, ought the law to prohibit them all and prevent them from existing in our midst, or shall we not plainly wish that the kind of love which belongs to virtue and desires the young to be as good as possible should exist within our State, while we shall prohibit, if possible, the other two kinds? Or what is our view, my dear Megillus?
Meg. Your description of the subject, Stranger, is perfectly correct.
Ath. It seems that, as I expected, I have gained your assent; so there is no need for me to investigate your law, and its attitude towards such matters, but simply to accept your agreement to my statement. Later on I will try to charm Clinias also into agreeing with me on this subject. So let your joint admission stand at that, and let us by all means proceed with our laws.
Meg. Quite right.
ΑΘ. τέχνην δή τινʼ αὖ τούτου τοῦ νόμου τῆς θέσεως ἐν τῷ νῦν παρόντι τὴν μὲν ῥᾳδίαν ἔχω, τὴν δʼ αὖ τινα τρόπον παντάπασιν ὡς οἷόν τε χαλεπωτάτην.
ΜΕ. πῶς δὴ λέγεις;
ΑΘ. ἴσμεν που καὶ τὰ νῦν τοὺς πλείστους τῶν ἀνθρώπων, καίπερ παρανόμους ὄντας, ὡς εὖ τε καὶ ἀκριβῶς εἴργονται τῆς τῶν καλῶν συνουσίας οὐκ ἄκοντες, ὡς οἷόν τε δὲ μάλιστα ἑκόντες.
ΜΕ. πότε λέγεις;
ΑΘ. ὅταν ἀδελφὸς ἢ ἀδελφή τῳ γένωνται καλοί. καὶ περὶ ὑέος ἢ θυγατρὸς ὁ αὐτὸς νόμος ἄγραφος ὢν ὡς οἷόν τε ἱκανώτατα φυλάττει μήτε φανερῶς μήτε λάθρᾳ συγκαθεύδοντα ἤ πως ἄλλως ἀσπαζόμενον ἅπτεσθαι τούτων· ἀλλʼ οὐδʼ ἐπιθυμία ταύτης τῆς συνουσίας τὸ παράπαν εἰσέρχεται τοὺς πολλούς.
ΜΕ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν σμικρὸν ῥῆμα κατασβέννυσι πάσας τὰς τοιαύτας ἡδονάς;
ΜΕ. τὸ ποῖον δὴ λέγεις;
ΑΘ. τὸ ταῦτα εἶναι φάναι μηδαμῶς ὅσια, θεομισῆ δὲ καὶ αἰσχρῶν αἴσχιστα. τὸ δʼ αἴτιον ἆρʼ οὐ τοῦτʼ ἐστί, τὸ μηδένα ἄλλως λέγειν αὐτά, ἀλλʼ εὐθὺς γενόμενον ἡμῶν ἕκαστον ἀκούειν τε λεγόντων ἀεὶ καὶ πανταχοῦ ταῦτα, ἐν γελοίοις τε ἅμα ἐν πάσῃ τε σπουδῇ τραγικῇ λεγομένῃ πολλάκις, ὅταν ἢ Θυέστας ἤ τινας Οἰδίποδας εἰσάγωσιν, ἢ Μακαρέας τινὰς ἀδελφαῖς μειχθέντας λαθραίως, ὀφθέντας δὲ ἑτοίμως θάνατον αὑτοῖς ἐπιτιθέντας δίκην τῆς ἁμαρτίας;
ΜΕ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις τό γε τοσοῦτον, ὅτι τὸ τῆς φήμης θαυμαστήν τινα δύναμιν εἴληχεν, ὅταν μηδεὶς μηδαμῶς ἄλλως ἀναπνεῖν ἐπιχειρήσῃ ποτὲ παρὰ τὸν νόμον.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ὀρθὸν τὸ νυνδὴ ῥηθέν, ὅτι νομοθέτῃ, βουλομένῳ τινὰ ἐπιθυμίαν δουλώσασθαι τῶν διαφερόντως τοὺς ἀνθρώπους δουλουμένων, ῥᾴδιον γνῶναί γε ὅντινα τρόπον χειρώσαιτο ἄν· ὅτι καθιερώσας ταύτην τὴν φήμην παρὰ πᾶσι, δούλοις τε καὶ ἐλευθέροις καὶ παισὶ καὶ γυναιξὶ καὶ ὅλῃ τῇ πόλει κατὰ τὰ αὐτά, οὕτω τὸ βεβαιότατον ἀπειργασμένος ἔσται περὶ τοῦτον τὸν νόμον.
ΜΕ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν· ὅπως δὲ αὖ τὸ τοιοῦτον ἐθέλοντας λέγειν πάντας δυνατὸν ἔσται ποτὲ παρασχεῖν—
Ath. I know of a device at present for enacting this law, which is in one way easy, but in another quite the hardest possible.
Meg. Explain your meaning.
Ath. Even at present, as we are aware, most men, however lawless they are, are effectively and strictly precluded from sexual commerce with beautiful persons,—and that not against their will, but with their own most willing consent.
Meg. On what occasions do you mean?
Ath. Whenever any man has a brother or sister who is beautiful. So too in the case of a son or daughter, the same unwritten law is most effective in guarding men from sleeping with them, either openly or secretly, or wishing to have any connection with them,—nay, most men never so much as feel any desire for such connection.
Meg. That is true.
Ath. Is it not, then, by a brief sentence that all such pleasures are quenched?
Meg. What sentence do you mean?
Ath. The sentence that these acts are by no means holy, but hated of God and most shamefully shameful. And does not the reason lie in this, that nobody speaks of them otherwise, but every one of us, from the day of his birth, hears this opinion expressed always and everywhere, not only in comic speech, but often also in serious tragedy—as when there is brought on to the stage a Thyestes or an Oedipus, or a Macareus having secret intercourse with a sister, and all these are seen inflicting death upon themselves willingly as a punishment for their sins?
Meg. Thus much at least you are quite right in saying—that public opinion has a surprising influence, when there is no attempt by anybody ever to breathe a word that contradicts the law.
Ath. Then is it not true, as I said just now, that when a lawgiver wishes to subdue one of those lusts which especially subdue men, it is easy for him at least to learn the method of mastering them,—that it is by consecrating this public opinion in the eyes of all alike—bond and free, women and children, and the whole State—that he will effect the firmest security for this law.
Meg. Certainly; but how it will ever be possible for him to bring it about that all are willing to say such a thing—
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