Plato · Laws Νόμοι

Plato, Laws 941a–944e: Book XII: Heralds, theft, and the laws of military service

The Athenian provides that an ambassador or herald who carries a false message, or brings back a false reply, shall be indicted for sinning against the sacred messages of Hermes and Zeus. He says that theft is uncivilized and open robbery shameless, and that no one should be persuaded by poets or myth-makers that he does nothing shameful in stealing, because the gods do it, and he deals with theft of public property by resident aliens and slaves. He praises the military life as a care for the extremities of the body, and lays down that a man who is enrolled must serve, and that a man who deserts through cowardice shall be indicted and tried by soldiers of his own class.

Sections 941a–944e · 1687 words · click a number to copy its link

ΑΘ. ἐὰν ὡς πρεσβευτής τις ἢ κῆρυξ καταψευδόμενος τῆς πόλεως παραπρεσβεύηται πρός τινα πόλιν, ἢ πεμπόμενος μὴ τὰς οὔσας πρεσβείας ἐφʼ αἷς πέμπεται ἀπαγγέλλῃ, ἢ πάλιν αὖ παρὰ τῶν πολεμίων ἢ καὶ φίλων μὴ τὰ παρʼ ἐκείνων ὀρθῶς ἀποπρεσβεύσας γένηται φανερὸς ἢ κηρυκεύσας, γραφαὶ κατὰ τούτων ἔστων ὡς Ἑρμοῦ καὶ Διὸς ἀγγελίας καὶ ἐπιτάξεις παρὰ νόμον ἀσεβησάντων, τίμημα δὲ ὅτι χρὴ πάσχειν ἢ ἀποτίνειν, ἐὰν ὄφλῃ.κλοπὴ μὲν χρημάτων ἀνελεύθερον, ἁρπαγὴ δὲ ἀναίσχυντον· τῶν Διὸς δὲ ὑέων οὐδεὶς οὔτε δόλοις οὔτε βίᾳ χαίρων ἐπιτετήδευκεν τούτοιν οὐδέτερον. μηδεὶς οὖν ὑπὸ ποιητῶν μηδʼ ἄλλως ὑπό τινων μυθολόγων πλημμελῶν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἐξαπατώμενος ἀναπειθέσθω, καὶ κλέπτων ἢ βιαζόμενος οἰέσθω μηδὲν αἰσχρὸν ποιεῖν ἀλλʼ ἅπερ αὐτοὶ θεοὶ δρῶσιν· οὔτε γὰρ ἀληθὲς οὔτʼ εἰκός, ἀλλʼ ὅς τι δρᾷ τοιοῦτον παρανόμως, οὔτε θεὸς οὔτε παῖς ἐστίν ποτε θεῶν, ταῦτα δὲ νομοθέτῃ μᾶλλον προσήκει γιγνώσκειν ἢ ποιηταῖς σύμπασιν. ὁ μὲν οὖν πεισθεὶς ἡμῶν τῷ λόγῳ εὐτυχεῖ τε καὶ εἰς χρόνον ἅπαντα εὐτυχοῖ, ὁ δὲ ἀπιστήσας τὸ μετὰ ταῦτα τοιῷδέ τινι μαχέσθω νόμῳ· ἐάν τίς τι κλέπτῃ δημόσιον μέγα ἢ καὶ σμικρόν, τῆς αὐτῆς δίκης δεῖ. μικρόν τι γὰρ ὁ κλέπτων ἔρωτι μὲν ταὐτῷ, δυνάμει δὲ ἐλάττονι κέκλοφεν, ὅ τε τὸ μεῖζον κινῶν οὐ καταθέμενος ὅλον ἀδικεῖ· δίκης οὖν οὐδέτερον οὐδετέρου ἐλάττονος ἕνεκα μεγέθους τοῦ κλέμματος ὁ νόμος ἀξιοῖ ζημιοῦν, ἀλλὰ τῷ τὸν μὲν ἴσως ἂν ἰάσιμον ἔτʼ εἶναι, τὸν δʼ ἀνίατον.

Ath. If anyone, while acting as ambassador or herald, conveys false messages from his State to another State, or fails to deliver the actual message he was sent to deliver, or is proved to have brought back, as ambassador or herald, either from a friendly or hostile nation, their reply in a false form,—against all such there shall be laid an indictment for breaking the law by sinning against the sacred messages and injunctions of Hermes and Zeus, and an assessment shall be made of the penalty they shall suffer or pay, if convicted. Theft of property is uncivilized, open robbery is shameless: neither of these has any of the sons of Zeus practiced, through delight in fraud or force. Let no man, therefore, be deluded concerning this or persuaded either by poets or by any perverse myth-mongers into the belief that, when he thieves or forcibly robs, he is doing nothing shameful, but just what the gods themselves do. That is both unlikely and untrue; and whoever acts thus unlawfully is neither a god at all nor a child of gods; and this the lawgiver, as it behoves him, knows better than the whole tribe of poets. He, therefore, that hearkens to our speech is blessed, and deserves blessing for all time; but he that hearkens not shall, in the next place, be holden by this law:—If anyone steals any piece of public property, he shall receive the same punishment, be it great or small. For he that steals a small thing steals with equal greed, though with less power, while he that takes a large thing which he has not deposited does wrong to the full; wherefore the law deems it right not to inflict a less penalty on the one offender than on the other on the ground that his theft is smaller, but rather because the one is possibly still curable, the other incurable.

ΑΘ. ξένον μὲν δὴ τῶν δημοσίων ἢ δοῦλον ἄν τίς τι κλέπτοντα ἐν δικαστηρίῳ ἕλῃ, ὡς ἰασίμῳ ἐκ τῶν εἰκότων ὄντι, τί χρὴ παθεῖν ἢ τίνα ζημίαν ἀποτίνειν αὐτὸν ἡ κρίσις γιγνέσθω· τὸν δὲ ἀστὸν καὶ τεθραμμένον ὡς ἔσται τεθραμμένος, ἂν πατρίδα συλῶν ἢ βιαζόμενος ἁλίσκηται, ἐάντʼ ἐπʼ αὐτοφώρῳ ἐάντε μή, σχεδὸν ὡς ἀνίατον ὄντα θανάτῳ ζημιοῦν.στρατιῶν δὲ ἕνεκα πολλὴ μὲν συμβουλή, πολλοὶ δὲ νόμοι γίγνονται κατὰ τρόπον, μέγιστον δὲ τὸ μηδέποτε ἄναρχον μηδένα εἶναι, μήτʼ ἄρρενα μήτε θήλειαν, μηδέ τινος ἔθει ψυχὴν εἰθίσθαι μήτε σπουδάζοντος μήτʼ ἐν παιδιαῖς αὐτὸν ἐφʼ αὑτοῦ τι κατὰ μόνας δρᾶν, ἀλλʼ ἔν τε πολέμῳ παντὶ καὶ ἐν εἰρήνῃ πάσῃ πρὸς τὸν ἄρχοντα ἀεὶ βλέποντα καὶ συνεπόμενον ζῆν, καὶ τὰ βραχύταθʼ ὑπʼ ἐκείνου κυβερνώμενον, οἷον ἑστάναι θʼ ὅταν ἐπιτάττῃ τις καὶ πορεύεσθαι καὶ γυμνάζεσθαι καὶ λοῦσθαι καὶ σιτεῖσθαι καὶ ἐγείρεσθαι νύκτωρ εἴς τε φυλακὰς καὶ παραγγέλσεις, καὶ ἐν αὐτοῖς τοῖς κινδύνοις μήτε τινὰ διώκειν μήθʼ ὑποχωρεῖν ἄλλῳ ἄνευ τῆς τῶν ἀρχόντων δηλώσεως, ἑνί τε λόγῳ τὸ χωρίς τι τῶν ἄλλων πράττειν διδάξαι τὴν ψυχὴν ἔθεσι μήτε γιγνώσκειν μήτʼ ἐπίστασθαι τὸ παράπαν, ἀλλʼ ἁθρόον ἀεὶ καὶ ἅμα καὶ κοινὸν τὸν βίον ὅτι μάλιστα πᾶσι πάντων γίγνεσθαι—τούτου γὰρ οὔτʼ ἔστιν οὔτε ποτὲ μὴ γένηται κρεῖττον οὔτε ἄμεινον οὔτε τεχνικώτερον εἰς σωτηρίαν τὴν κατὰ πόλεμον καὶ νίκην— τοῦτο ἐν εἰρήνῃ μελετητέον εὐθὺς ἐκ τῶν παίδων, ἄρχειν τε ἄλλων ἄρχεσθαί θʼ ὑφʼ ἑτέρων· τὴν δʼ ἀναρχίαν ἐξαιρετέον ἐκ παντὸς τοῦ βίου ἁπάντων τῶν ἀνθρώπων τε καὶ τῶν ὑπʼ ἀνθρώπους θηρίων. καὶ δὴ καὶ χορείας πάσας εἰς τὰς ἀριστείας τὰς κατὰ πόλεμον βλεπούσας χορεύειν, καὶ ὅλην εὐκολίαν τε καὶ εὐχέρειαν ἐπιτηδεύειν τῶν αὐτῶν εἵνεκα, καρτερήσεις τε αὖ σίτων καὶ ποτῶν καὶ χειμώνων καὶ τῶν ἐναντίων καὶ κοίτης σκληρᾶς, καὶ τὸ μέγιστον, τὴν τῆς κεφαλῆς καὶ ποδῶν δύναμιν μὴ διαφθείρειν τῇ τῶν ἀλλοτρίων σκεπασμάτων περικαλυφῇ, τὴν τῶν οἰκείων ἀπολλύντας πίλων τε καὶ ὑποδημάτων γένεσιν καὶ φύσιν·

Ath. So if anyone convict in a court of law either a resident alien or a slave of stealing any piece of public property, in his case, since he is probably curable, the court shall decide what punishment he shall suffer or what fine he shall pay. But in the case of a citizen, who has been reared in the way he is to be reared,—if he be convicted of plundering or doing violence to his fatherland, whether he has been caught in the act or not, he shall be punished by death, as being practically incurable. Military organization is the subject of much consultation and of many appropriate laws. The main principle is this—that nobody, male or female, should ever be left without control, nor should anyone, whether at work or in play, grow habituated in mind to acting alone and on his own initiative, but he should live always, both in war and peace, with his eyes fixed constantly on his commander and following his lead; and he should be guided by him even in the smallest detail of his actions—for example, to stand at the word of command, and to march, and to exercise, to wash and eat, to wake up at night for sentry-duty and despatch-carrying, and in moments of danger to wait for the commander’s signal before either pursuing or retreating before an enemy; and, in a word, he must instruct his soul by habituation to avoid all thought or idea of doing anything at all apart from the rest of his company, so that the life of all shall be lived en masse and in common; for there is not, nor ever will be, any rule superior to this or better and more effective in ensuring safety and victory in war. This task of ruling, and being ruled by, others must be practiced in peace from earliest childhood; but anarchy must be utterly removed from the lives of all mankind, and of the beasts also that are subject to man. Moreover, with a view to excellence in war, they shall dance all kinds of dances, and with the same object they shall cultivate in general suppleness and dexterity, and endurance also in the matter of foods and drinks and cold and heat and hard beds; and, what is most important, they shall accustom themselves not to spoil the natural powers of head and feet by wrapping them in coverings of alien material, and thereby ruining the production and growth of their own natural hair and soles.

ΑΘ. ταῦτα γὰρ ἀκρωτήρια ὄντα σῳζόμενά τε ἔχει μεγίστην δύναμιν παντὸς τοῦ σώματος καὶ τοὐναντίον ἐναντίως, καὶ τὸ μὲν ὑπηρετικώτατον ἅπαντι τῷ σώματι, τὸ δὲ ἀρχικώτατον, ἔχον τὰς κυρίας ἁπάσας αἰσθήσεις αὐτοῦ φύσει. ἔπαινον μὲν δὴ τοῦτον ἀκούειν τὸν νέον χρῆν δοκεῖν πολεμικοῦ περὶ βίου, νόμους δʼ αὖ τούσδε· Στρατεύεσθαι τὸν καταλεγέντα ἢ τὸν ἐν μέρει τινὶ τεταγμένον. ἐὰν δέ τις ἐκλείπῃ τινὶ κάκῃ μὴ στρατηγῶν ἀφέντων, γραφὰς ἀστρατείας εἶναι πρὸς τοὺς πολεμικοὺς ἄρχοντας, ὅταν ἔλθωσιν ἀπὸ στρατοπέδου, δικάζειν δὲ τοὺς στρατεύσαντας ἑκάστους χωρίς, ὁπλίτας τε καὶ ἱππέας καὶ τἆλλα ἐμπολέμια ἕκαστα ὡσαύτως, καὶ εἰσάγειν ὁπλίτας μὲν εἰς τοὺς ὁπλίτας, ἱππέας δὲ εἰς τοὺς ἱππέας καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους δὲ κατὰ ταὐτὰ εἰς τοὺς αὑτῶν συννόμους· ἐὰν δέ τις ὄφλῃ, ὑπάρχειν μὲν αὐτῷ μήποτε τῆς ὅλης ἀριστείας ἀγωνιστῇ γενέσθαι μηδὲ ἀστρατείας ἄλλον γράψασθαί ποτε μηδὲ κατηγόρῳ τούτων πέρι γενέσθαι, πρὸς τούτοις δʼ ἔτι προστιμᾶν αὐτῷ τὸ δικαστήριον ὅτι χρὴ παθεῖν ἢ ἀποτίνειν. μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα, ἐκδικασθεισῶν τῶν τῆς ἀστρατείας δικῶν, πάλιν ἑκάστων ἄρχοντας ποιῆσαι σύλλογον, ἀριστείων δὲ πέρι κρίνεσθαι τὸν βουλόμενον ἐν τοῖς αὑτῶν ἔθνεσιν, μὴ περὶ προτέρου πολέμου μηδὲν παρεχόμενον μήτε τεκμήριον μήτε μαρτύρων πιστώσεις λόγων, αὐτῆς δὲ περὶ τῆς στρατείας τῆς τότε γενομένης αὐτοῖς. στέφανον δὲ τὸ νικητήριον ἑκάστοις εἶναι θαλλοῦ· τοῦτον δὲ εἰς τὰ τῶν πολεμικῶν θεῶν ἱερά, ὧν ἄν τις βούληται, γράψαντα ἀναθεῖναι μαρτύριον εἰς τὴν τῶν ἀριστείων κρίσιν παντὸς τοῦ βίου καὶ τὴν τῶν δευτέρων καὶ τρίτων. ἐὰν δὲ στρατεύσηται μέν τις, μὴ ἀπαγαγόντων δὲ τῶν ἀρχόντων οἴκαδε προαπέλθῃ τοῦ χρόνου, λιποταξίου τούτων εἶναι γραφὰς ἐν τοῖς αὐτοῖς οἷς περὶ τῆς ἀστρατείας, ὀφλοῦσίν τε τιμωρίαι ἐπέστωσαν αἵπερ καὶ πρόσθεν ἐτέθησαν. χρὴ μὲν δὴ πᾶσαν ἐπιφέροντα δίκην ἀνδρὶ πάντʼ ἄνδρα φοβεῖσθαι τὸ μήτε ἐπενεγκεῖν ψευδῆ τιμωρίαν, μήτʼ οὖν ἑκόντα μήτʼ ἄκοντα κατὰ δύναμιν—παρθένος γὰρ Αἰδοῦς Δίκη λέγεταί τε καὶ ὄντως εἴρηται, ψεῦδος δὲ αἰδοῖ καὶ δίκῃ νεμεσητὸν κατὰ φύσιν—τῶν τε οὖν ἄλλων εὐλαβεῖσθαι πέρι πλημμελεῖν εἰς δίκην, διαφερόντως δὲ καὶ τῆς τῶν κατὰ πόλεμον ὅπλων ἀποβολῆς, μὴ διαμαρτών τις ἄρα τῶν ἀναγκαίων ἀποβολῶν, ὡς αἰσχρὰς αὐτὰς εἰς ὄνειδος τιθείς, ἀναξίῳ ἀναξίας ἐπάγῃ δίκας.

Ath. For when these extremities are conserved, they keep at its highest the power of the whole body, but they effect the opposite when spoiled; and of these two extremities, the one is the chief minister of the whole body, and the other the chief master, inasmuch as, by the ordinance of nature, it contains all the leading senses of the body. Such is the laudation of the military life to which, as we hold, the youth ought to hearken, and its laws are these:—He that is enrolled or put on some rota must perform military service. If anyone, through cowardice, fail to present himself without leave from the commanders, he shall be indicted for desertion before the military officers when they return from camp, and each class of those who have served shall sit by themselves as judge—that is, hoplites, cavalry, and each of the other branches,— and they shall summon hoplites before the hoplites, cavalrymen before the cavalry, and all others in like manner before soldiers of their own class; and any man that is convicted shall be debarred from ever competing for any distinction and from ever prosecuting another for shirking service, or acting as accuser in connection with such charges; and, in addition to this, what he ought to suffer or pay shall be determined by the court. Next, when the suits for shirking service have been fully decided, the officers shall again hold a review of each class of soldiers, and he who wishes shall be tried before a court of his own colleagues on his claim for an award of merit; but any proof or verbal testimony which the claimant produces must have reference, not to any previous war, but solely to that campaign in which they have just been engaged. The prize for each class shall be a wreath of olive leaves; and this the recipient shall hang up, along with an inscription, in whatever temple of the war-gods he chooses, to serve throughout his life as a proof that he has won the first, second or third prize, as the case may be. If a man goes on military service, but returns home without leave from the officers, he shall be liable to be indicted for desertion before the same court which deals with cases of shirking service, and the same penalties which have been already prescribed shall be imposed upon him, if he is convicted. Every man, when bringing an action against another, ought rightly to dread bringing upon him, whether intentionally or unintentionally, a wrongful punishment (for Justice is, and has been truly named, the daughter of Reverence, and falsehood and wrong are naturally detested by Reverence and Justice); and he should beware also of trespassing against Justice in any matter, and especially in respect of loss of arms in battle, lest by mistakenly abusing such losses as shameful, when they are really unavoidable, he may bring undeserved charges against an undeserving man.

ΑΘ. ῥᾴδιον μὲν οὖν οὐδαμῶς διορίσαι τούτων θάτερον, ὅμως δὲ χρὴ τὸν νόμον ἁμῶς γέ πως ὁρίζειν πειρᾶσθαι κατὰ μέρη. μύθῳ δὴ προσχρώμενοι ἅμʼ εἴπωμεν, εἰ κομισθεὶς ἐπὶ σκηνὴν ἄνευ τῶν ὅπλων Πάτροκλος ἔμπνους ἐγένεθʼ, οἷον δὴ μυρίοις συνέπεσεν, τὰ δὲ πρότερα ἐκεῖνα ὅπλα, ἃ Πηλεῖ φησιν ὁ ποιητὴς παρὰ θεῶν προῖκα ἐν τοῖς γάμοις ἐπιδοθῆναι Θέτιδι, ταῦτα δὲ Ἕκτωρ εἶχεν, ἐξῆν ἂν τῶν τότε ὅσοι κακοὶ ὀνειδίζειν ὅπλων ἀποβολὴν τῷ τοῦ Μενοιτίου. ἔτι δὲ ὁπόσοι κατὰ κρημνῶν ῥιφέντες ἀπώλεσαν ὅπλα, ἢ κατὰ θάλατταν, ἢ χειμώνων ἐν κόποις ὑποδεξαμένης αὐτοὺς ἐξαίφνης πολλῆς ῥύσεως ὕδατος, ἢ μυρίʼ ἂν ἔχοι τις τοιαῦτα παραμυθούμενος ἐπᾴδειν, εὐδιάβολον κακὸν καλλύνων· τεμεῖν δὴ χρεὼν κατὰ δύναμιν τὸ μεῖζον καὶ τὸ δυσχερέστερον κακὸν ἀπὸ τοῦ ἐναντίου. σχεδὸν οὖν ἐν τοῖς ὀνείδεσιν ἔχει τινὰ τομὴν ἡ τούτων τῶν ὀνομάτων ἐπιφορά· ῥίψασπις μὲν γὰρ οὐκ ἐν πᾶσιν ὀνομάζοιτʼ ἂν δικαίως, ἀποβολεὺς δὲ ὅπλων. οὐχ ὁμοίως γὰρ ὅ τε ἀφαιρεθεὶς μετʼ εἰκυίας βίας γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ῥίψασπις ὅ τε ἀφεὶς ἑκών, διαφέρει δὲ ὅλον που καὶ τὸ πᾶν. ὧδʼ οὖν δὴ λεγέσθω νόμῳ· ἐὰν καταλαμβανόμενός τις ὑπὸ πολεμίων καὶ ἔχων ὅπλα μὴ ἀναστρέφῃ καὶ ἀμύνηται, ἀφῇ δὲ ἑκὼν ἢ ῥίψῃ, ζωὴν αἰσχρὰν ἀρνύμενος μετὰ κάκης μᾶλλον ἢ μετʼ ἀνδρείας καλὸν καὶ εὐδαίμονα θάνατον, τοιαύτης μὲν ὅπλων ἀποβολῆς ἔστω δίκη ῥιφθέντων, τῆς δὲ εἰρημένης ἔμπροσθεν ὁ δικάζων μὴ ἀμελείτω σκοπεῖν. τὸν γὰρ κακὸν ἀεὶ δεῖ κολάζειν, ἵνʼ ἀμείνων ᾖ, οὐ τὸν δυστυχῆ· οὐδὲν γὰρ πλέον. ζημία δὴ τῷ τὴν τοιαύτην ἀμυντηρίων ὅπλων εἰς τοὐναντίον ἀφέντι δύναμιν τίς ἄρα γίγνοιτʼ ἂν πρόσφορος; οὐ γὰρ δυνατὸν ἀνθρώπῳ δρᾶν τοὐναντίον ὥς ποτε θεόν φασι δρᾶσαι, Καινέα τὸν Θετταλὸν ἐκ γυναικὸς μεταβαλόντα εἰς ἀνδρὸς φύσιν· ἦν γὰρ ἀνδρὶ ῥιψάσπιδι τρόπον τινὰ πρέπουσα πασῶν μάλιστα ἡ ʼκείνῃ τῇ γενέσει ἐναντία γένεσις, εἰς γυναῖκα ἐξ ἀνδρὸς μεταβαλοῦσα, τιμωρία τούτῳ γενομένη.

Ath. It is by no means easy to draw distinctions between such cases; but none the less the law ought to try by some means to distinguish case from case. In illustration we may cite the story of Patroclus: suppose that he had been brought to his tent without his arms and had recovered—as has happened in the case of thousands,—while the arms he had had (which, as the poet relates, had been given to Peleus by the gods, as a dowry with Thetis) were in the hands of Hector,—then all the base men of those days would have been free to abuse Menoetios’ son for loss of arms. Moreover, there are instances of men losing their arms through being flung down from cliffs, or on the sea, or in ravines, when overwhelmed by a sudden great rush of water, or from other mishaps, countless in number, which one could mention by way of consolation, and thereby justify an evil which lends itself to calumny. It is right, therefore, to separate, as best one can, the greater and more serious evil from its opposite. As a rule, indeed, the employment of the names in question by way of abuse admits of a distinction; for the term “shield-flinger” would not properly be applied in all cases, but rather the term “arms-dropper.” For the man who by a fair amount of violence is stripped of his arms will not be as much of a “shield-flinger” as the man who has voluntarily thrown them away—rather there is a vast difference between the two cases. So let the pronouncement of the law be this:—If a man is overtaken by his enemies and, having arms, instead of turning and defending himself, voluntarily drops his arms or flings them away, thereby gaining for himself a life that is shameful by speed of foot, rather than by bravery a noble and blessed death,—concerning the arms flung away in a loss of this sort a trial shall be held, but the judge shall pass over in his enquiry a case of the kind previously described. For the bad man one must always punish, in order to better him, but not the luckless man; for that profits not. What, then, would be a proper penalty for the man who has thrown away for naught such powerful weapons of defence? A god, it is said, once changed Kaineus the Thessalian from woman’s shape to man’s; but it is beyond human power to do the opposite of this; otherwise, the converse transformation—changing him from a man into a woman—would be, perhaps, the most appropriate of all penalties for a “shield-flinger.”

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English translation by Robert Gregg Bury (1926). Original text: Robert Gregg Bury (trans.), Plato X-XI: Laws, Loeb Classical Library, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press; London: William Heinemann, 1926; Greek text: John Burnet, Platonis Opera, Oxford Classical Texts (as digitised by Perseus).

Greek text and translation from the Perseus Digital Library, Tufts University, CC BY-SA 4.0 (Perseus Digital Library); translation public domain. Introductions, summaries and notes © GreekMythology.com.

Laws 941a–944e: Book XII: Heralds, theft, and the laws of…