ΑΘ. μήπω τὸ πῶς ἂν μηχανησαίμεθα λέγωμεν· εἰ δεῖ δὲ ἢ μή, πρῶτον βεβαιωσώμεθα τῇ συνομολογίᾳ πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτούς.
ΚΛ. ἀλλὰ μὴν δεῖ γε, εἴπερ δυνατόν.
ΑΘ. τί δὲ δή; περὶ καλοῦ τε καὶ ἀγαθοῦ ταὐτὸν τοῦτο διανοούμεθα; ὡς πόλλʼ ἔστιν μόνον ἕκαστον τούτων τοὺς φύλακας ἡμῖν γνωστέον, ἢ καὶ ὅπως ἕν τε καὶ ὅπῃ;
ΚΛ. σχεδὸν ἔοικʼ ἐξ ἀνάγκης δεῖν καὶ ὅπως ἓν διανοεῖσθαι.
ΑΘ. τί δʼ, ἐννοεῖν μέν, τὴν δὲ ἔνδειξιν τῷ λόγῳ ἀδυνατεῖν ἐνδείκνυσθαι;
ΚΛ. καὶ πῶς; ἀνδραπόδου γάρ τινα σὺ λέγεις ἕξιν.
ΑΘ. τί δέ; περὶ πάντων τῶν σπουδαίων ἆρʼ ἡμῖν αὑτὸς λόγος, ὅτι δεῖ τοὺς ὄντως φύλακας ἐσομένους τῶν νόμων ὄντως εἰδέναι τὰ περὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν αὐτῶν, καὶ λόγῳ τε ἱκανοὺς ἑρμηνεύειν εἶναι καὶ τοῖς ἔργοις συνακολουθεῖν, κρίνοντας τά τε καλῶς γιγνόμενα καὶ τὰ μὴ κατὰ φύσιν;
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
ΑΘ. μῶν οὖν οὐχ ἓν τῶν καλλίστων ἐστὶν τὸ περὶ τοὺς θεούς, ὃ δὴ σπουδῇ διεπερανάμεθα, ὡς εἰσίν τε καὶ ὅσης φαίνονται κύριοι δυνάμεως, εἰδέναι τε εἰς ὅσον δυνατόν ἐστιν ταῦτʼ ἄνθρωπον γιγνώσκειν, καὶ τοῖς μὲν πλείστοις τῶν κατὰ πόλιν συγγιγνώσκειν τῇ φήμῃ μόνον τῶν νόμων συνακολουθοῦσιν, τοῖς δὲ φυλακῆς μεθέξουσιν μηδὲ ἐπιτρέπειν, ὃς ἂν μὴ διαπονήσηται τὸ πᾶσαν πίστιν λαβεῖν τῶν οὐσῶν περὶ θεῶν; τὴν δὲ μὴ ἐπιτροπὴν εἶναι τὸ μηδέποτε τῶν νομοφυλάκων αἱρεῖσθαι τὸν μὴ θεῖον καὶ διαπεπονηκότα πρὸς αὐτά, μηδʼ αὖ τῶν πρὸς ἀρετὴν ἔγκριτον γίγνεσθαι;
ΚΛ. δίκαιον γοῦν, ὡς λέγεις, τὸν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀργὸν ἢ ἀδύνατον ἀποκρίνεσθαι πόρρω τῶν καλῶν.
ΑΘ. ἆρα οὖν ἴσμεν ὅτι δύʼ ἐστὸν τὼ περὶ θεῶν ἄγοντε εἰς πίστιν, ὅσα διήλθομεν ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν;
ΚΛ. ποῖα;
ΑΘ. ἓν μὲν ὃ περὶ τὴν ψυχὴν ἐλέγομεν, ὡς πρεσβύτατόν τε καὶ θειότατόν ἐστιν πάντων ὧν κίνησις γένεσιν παραλαβοῦσα ἀέναον οὐσίαν ἐπόρισεν· ἓν δὲ τὸ περὶ τὴν φοράν, ὡς ἔχει τάξεως, ἄστρων τε καὶ ὅσων ἄλλων ἐγκρατὴς νοῦς ἐστιν τὸ πᾶν διακεκοσμηκώς.
Ath. It is too early to explain how we are to contrive it: let us first make sure that we agree among ourselves as to whether or not we ought to do so.
Clin. Well, surely we ought, if we can.
Ath. Very well then; do we hold the same view about the fair and the good? Ought our wardens to know only that each of these is a plurality, or ought they also to know how and wherein they are each a unity?
Clin. It is fairly obvious that they must necessarily also discern how these are a unity.
Ath. Well then, ought they to discern it, but be unable to give a verbal demonstration of it?
Clin. Impossible! The state of mind you describe is that of a slave.
Ath. Well then, do we hold the same view about all forms of goodness, that those who are to be real wardens of the laws must really know the true nature of them, and be capable both of expounding it in word and conforming to it in deed, passing judgment on fair actions and foul according to their real character?
Clin. Certainly.
Ath. And is not one of the fairest things the doctrine about the gods, which we expounded earnestly,—to know both that they exist, and what power they manifestly possess, so far as a man is capable of learning these matters; so that while one should pardon the mass of the citizens if they merely follow the letter of the law, one must exclude from office those who are eligible for wardenship, unless they labor to grasp all the proofs there are about the existence of gods? Such exclusion from office consists in refusing ever to choose as a Law-warden, or to number among those approved for excellence, a man who is not divine himself, nor has spent any labor over things divine.
Clin. It is certainly just, as you say, that the man who is idle or incapable in respect of this subject should be strictly debarred from the ranks of the noble.
Ath. Are we assured, then, that there are two causes, amongst those we previously discussed, which lead to faith in the gods?
Clin. What two?
Ath. One is our dogma about the soul,—that it is the most ancient and divine of all the things whose motion, when developed into “becoming,” provides an ever-flowing fount of “being”; and the other is our dogma concerning the ordering of the motion of the stars and all the other bodies under the control of reason, which has made a “cosmos” of the All.
ΑΘ. ὁ γὰρ ἰδὼν ταῦτα μὴ φαύλως μηδʼ ἰδιωτικῶς, οὐδεὶς οὕτως ἄθεος ἀνθρώπων ποτὲ πέφυκεν, ὃς οὐ τοὐναντίον ἔπαθεν ἢ τὸ προσδοκώμενον ὑπὸ τῶν πολλῶν. οἱ μὲν γὰρ διανοοῦνται τοὺς τὰ τοιαῦτα μεταχειρισαμένους ἀστρονομίᾳ τε καὶ ταῖς μετὰ ταύτης ἀναγκαίαις ἄλλαις τέχναις ἀθέους γίγνεσθαι, καθεωρακότας ὡς οἷόν τε γιγνόμενα ἀνάγκαις πράγματʼ ἀλλʼ οὐ διανοίαις βουλήσεως ἀγαθῶν πέρι τελουμένων.
ΚΛ. τὸ δὲ δὴ πῶς ἔχον ἂν εἴη;
ΑΘ. πᾶν, ὅπερ εἶπον, τοὐναντίον ἔχει νῦν τε καὶ ὅτε ἄψυχα αὐτὰ οἱ διανοούμενοι διενοοῦντο. θαύματα μὲν οὖν καὶ τότε ὑπεδύετο περὶ αὐτά, καὶ ὑπωπτεύετο τὸ νῦν ὄντως δεδογμένον, ὅσοι τῆς ἀκριβείας αὐτῶν ἥπτοντο, ὅπως μήποτʼ ἂν ἄψυχα ὄντα οὕτως εἰς ἀκρίβειαν θαυμαστοῖς λογισμοῖς ἂν ἐχρῆτο, νοῦν μὴ κεκτημένα· καί τινες ἐτόλμων τοῦτό γε αὐτὸ παρακινδυνεύειν καὶ τότε, λέγοντες ὡς νοῦς εἴη ὁ διακεκοσμηκὼς πάνθʼ ὅσα κατʼ οὐρανόν. οἱ δὲ αὐτοὶ πάλιν ἁμαρτάνοντες ψυχῆς φύσεως ὅτι πρεσβύτερον εἴη σωμάτων, διανοηθέντες δὲ ὡς νεώτερον, ἅπανθʼ ὡς εἰπεῖν ἔπος ἀνέτρεψαν πάλιν, ἑαυτοὺς δὲ πολὺ μᾶλλον· τὸ γὰρ δὴ πρὸ τῶν ὀμμάτων, πάντα αὐτοῖς ἐφάνη, τὰ κατʼ οὐρανὸν φερόμενα, μεστὰ εἶναι λίθων καὶ γῆς καὶ πολλῶν ἄλλων ἀψύχων σωμάτων διανεμόντων τὰς αἰτίας παντὸς τοῦ κόσμου. ταῦτʼ ἦν τὰ τότε ἐξειργασμένα πολλὰς ἀθεότητας καὶ δυσχερείας τῶν τοιούτων ἅπτεσθαι, καὶ δὴ καὶ λοιδορήσεις γε ἐπῆλθον ποιηταῖς, τοὺς φιλοσοφοῦντας κυσὶ ματαίαις ἀπεικάζοντας χρωμέναισιν ὑλακαῖς, ἄλλα τε αὖ ἀνόητʼ εἰπεῖν· νῦν δέ, ὅπερ εἴρηται, πᾶν τοὐναντίον ἔχει.
ΚΛ. πῶς;
ΑΘ. οὐκ ἔστιν ποτὲ γενέσθαι βεβαίως θεοσεβῆ θνητῶν ἀνθρώπων οὐδένα, ὃς ἂν μὴ τὰ λεγόμενα ταῦτα νῦν δύο λάβῃ, ψυχή τε ὡς ἔστιν πρεσβύτατον ἁπάντων ὅσα γονῆς μετείληφεν, ἀθάνατόν τε, ἄρχει τε δὴ σωμάτων πάντων, ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοισι δή, τὸ νῦν εἰρημένον πολλάκις, τόν τε εἰρημένον ἐν τοῖς ἄστροις νοῦν τῶν ὄντων τά τε πρὸ τούτων ἀναγκαῖα μαθήματα λάβῃ, τά τε κατὰ τὴν μοῦσαν τούτοις τῆς κοινωνίας συνθεασάμενος, χρήσηται πρὸς τὰ τῶν ἠθῶν ἐπιτηδεύματα καὶ νόμιμα συναρμοττόντως, ὅσα τε λόγον ἔχει, τούτων δυνατὸς ᾖ δοῦναι τὸν λόγον·
Ath. For no man that views these objects in no careless or amateurish way has ever proved so godless as not to be affected by them in a way just the opposite of that which most people expect. For they imagine that those who study these objects in astronomy and the other necessary allied arts become atheists through observing, as they suppose, that all things come into being by necessary forces and not by the mental energy of the will aiming at the fulfillment of good.
Clin. What in fact is the real state of the case?
Ath. The position at present is, as I said, exactly the opposite of what it was when those who considered these objects considered them to be soulless. Yet even then they were objects of admiration, and the conviction which is now actually held was suspected by all who studied them accurately—namely, that if they were soulless, and consequently devoid of reason, they could never have employed with such precision calculations so marvellous; and even in those days there were some who dared to hazard the statement that reason is the orderer of all that is in the heavens. But the same thinkers, through mistaking the nature of the soul and conceiving her to be posterior, instead of prior, to body, upset again (so to say) the whole universe, and most of all themselves; for as regards the visible objects of sight, all that moves in the heavens appeared to them to be full of stones, earth and many other soulless bodies which dispense the causes of the whole cosmos. These were the views which, at that time, caused these thinkers to incur many charges of atheism and much odium, and which also incited the poets to abuse them by likening philosophers to “dogs howling at the moon,” with other such senseless slanders. But today, as we have said, the position is quite the reverse.
Clin. How so?
Ath. It is impossible for any mortal man to become permanently god-fearing if he does not grasp the two truths now stated,—namely, how that the soul is oldest of all things that partake of generation, and is immortal, and rules over all bodies,—and in addition to this, he must also grasp that reason which, as we have often affirmed, controls what exists among the stars, together with the necessary preliminary sciences; and he must observe also the connection therewith of musical theory, and apply it harmoniously to the institutions and rules of ethics; and he must be able to give a rational explanation of all that admits of rational explanation.
ΑΘ. ὁ δὲ μὴ ταῦθʼ οἷός τʼ ὢν πρὸς ταῖς δημοσίαις ἀρεταῖς κεκτῆσθαι σχεδὸν ἄρχων μὲν οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο ἱκανὸς ὅλης πόλεως, ὑπηρέτης δʼ ἂν ἄλλοις ἄρχουσιν. ὁρᾶν δὴ χρεὼν νῦν, ὦ Κλεινία καὶ Μέγιλλε, ἤδη πρὸς τοῖς εἰρημένοις νόμοις ἅπασιν ὅσους διεληλύθαμεν εἰ καὶ τοῦτον προσοίσομεν, ὡς φυλακὴν ἐσόμενον κατὰ νόμον χάριν σωτηρίας τὸν τῶν ἀρχόντων νυκτερινὸν σύλλογον, παιδείας ὁπόσης διεληλύθαμεν κοινωνὸν γενόμενον· ἢ πῶς ποιῶμεν;
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ λῷστε, πῶς οὐ προσοίσομεν, ἄν πῃ καὶ κατὰ βραχὺ δυνηθῶμεν;
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν πρός γε τὸ τοιοῦτον ἁμιλληθῶμεν πάντες. συλλήπτωρ γὰρ τούτου γε ὑμῖν καὶ ἐγὼ γιγνοίμην ἂν προθύμως—πρὸς δʼ ἐμοὶ καὶ ἑτέρους ἴσως εὑρήσω—διὰ τὴν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτʼ ἐμπειρίαν τε καὶ σκέψιν γεγονυῖάν μοι καὶ μάλα συχνήν.
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ ξένε, παντὸς μὲν μᾶλλον ταύτῃ πορευτέον ᾗπερ καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς σχεδὸν ἄγει· τίς δὲ ὁ τρόπος ἡμῖν γιγνόμενος ὀρθῶς γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, τοῦτο δὴ τὰ νῦν λέγωμέν τε καὶ ἐρευνῶμεν.
ΑΘ. οὐκέτι νόμους, ὦ Μέγιλλε καὶ Κλεινία, περὶ τῶν τοιούτων δυνατόν ἐστιν νομοθετεῖν, πρὶν ἂν κοσμηθῇ—τότε δὲ κυρίους ὧν αὐτοὺς δεῖ γίγνεσθαι νομοθετεῖν—ἀλλὰ ἤδη τὸ τὰ τοιαῦτα κατασκευάζον διδαχὴ μετὰ συνουσίας πολλῆς γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, εἰ γίγνοιτο ὀρθῶς.
ΚΛ. πῶς; τί τοῦτο εἰρῆσθαι φῶμεν αὖ;
ΑΘ. πρῶτον μὲν δήπου καταλεκτέος ἂν εἴη κατάλογος τῶν ὅσοι ἐπιτήδειοι πρὸς τὴν τῆς φυλακῆς φύσιν ἂν εἶεν ἡλικίαις τε καὶ μαθημάτων δυνάμεσιν καὶ τρόπων ἤθεσιν καὶ ἔθεσιν· μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο, ἃ δεῖ μανθάνειν οὔτε εὑρεῖν ῥᾴδιον οὔτε ηὑρηκότος ἄλλου μαθητὴν γενέσθαι. πρὸς τούτοις δὲ χρόνους, οὕς τε καὶ ἐν οἷς δεῖ παραλαμβάνειν ἕκαστα, μάταιον ταῦτʼ ἐν γράμμασιν λέγειν· οὐδὲ γὰρ αὐτοῖς τοῖς μανθάνουσι δῆλα γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ὅτι πρὸς καιρὸν μανθάνεται, πρὶν ἐντὸς τῆς ψυχῆς ἑκάστῳ που μαθήματος ἐπιστήμην γεγονέναι. οὕτω δὴ πάντα τὰ περὶ ταῦτα ἀπόρρητα μὲν λεχθέντα οὐκ ἂν ὀρθῶς λέγοιτο, ἀπρόρρητα δὲ διὰ τὸ μηδὲν προρρηθέντα δηλοῦν τῶν λεγομένων.
ΚΛ. τί οὖν δὴ ποιητέον ἐχόντων τούτων οὕτως, ὦ ξένε;
Ath. He that is unable to master these sciences, in addition to the popular virtues, will never make a competent magistrate of the whole State, but only a minister to other magistrates. And now, O Megillus and Clinias, it is time at last to consider whether, in addition to all the previous laws which we have stated, we shall add this also—that the nocturnal synod of magistrates shall be legally established, and shall participate in all the education we have described, to keep ward over the State, and to secure its salvation; or what are we to do?
Clin. Of course we shall add this law, my excellent sir, if we can possibly do so, even to a small extent.
Ath. Then, verily, let us all strive to do so. And herein you will find me a most willing helper, owing to my very long experience and study of this subject; and perhaps I shall discover other helpers also besides myself.
Clin. Well, Stranger, we most certainly must proceed on that path along which God too, it would seem, is conducting us. But what is the right method for us to employ,— that is what we have now got to discover and state.
Ath. It is not possible at this stage, Megillus and Clinias, to enact laws for such a body, before it has been duly framed; when it is, its members must themselves ordain what authority they should possess; but it is already plain that what is required in order to form such a body, if it is to be rightly formed, is teaching by means of prolonged conferences.
Clin. How so? What now are we to understand by this observation?
Ath. Surely we must first draw up a list of all those who are fitted by age, intellectual capacity, and moral character and habit for the office of warden; but as regards the next point, the subjects they should learn,—these it is neither easy to discover for oneself nor is it easy to find another who has made the discovery and learn from him. Moreover, with respect to the limits of time, when and for how long they ought to receive instruction in each subject, it were idle to lay down written regulations; for even the learners themselves could not be sure that they were learning at the opportune time until each of them had acquired within his soul some knowledge of the subject in question. Accordingly, although it would be wrong to term all these matters “indescribable,” they should be termed “imprescribable,” seeing that the prescribing of them beforehand does nothing to elucidate the question under discussion.
Clin. What then must we do, Stranger, under these circumstances?
ΑΘ. τὸ λεγόμενον, ὦ φίλοι, ἐν κοινῷ καὶ μέσῳ ἔοικεν ἡμῖν κεῖσθαι, καὶ εἴπερ κινδυνεύειν περὶ τῆς πολιτείας ἐθέλομεν συμπάσης, ἢ τρὶς ἕξ, φασίν, ἢ τρεῖς κύβους βάλλοντες, ταῦτα ποιητέον, ἐγὼ δʼ ὑμῖν συγκινδυνεύσω τῷ φράζειν τε καὶ ἐξηγεῖσθαι τά γε δεδογμένα ἐμοὶ περὶ τῆς παιδείας τε καὶ τροφῆς τῆς νῦν αὖ κεκινημένης τοῖς λόγοις· τὸ μέντοι κινδύνευμα οὐ σμικρὸν οὐδʼ ἑτέροις τισὶν προσφερὲς ἂν εἴη. σοὶ δὴ τοῦτό γε, ὦ Κλεινία, μέλειν παρακελεύομαι· σὺ γὰρ τὴν Μαγνήτων πόλιν, ἢ ᾧ ἂν θεὸς ἐπώνυμον αὐτὴν ποιήσῃ, κλέος ἀρῇ μέγιστον κατασκευάσας αὐτὴν ὀρθῶς, ἢ τό γε ἀνδρειότατος εἶναι δοκεῖν τῶν ὕστερον ἐπιγιγνομένων οὐκ ἐκφεύξῃ ποτέ. ἐάν γε μὴν οὗτος ἡμῖν ὁ θεῖος γένηται σύλλογος, ὦ φίλοι ἑταῖροι, παραδοτέον τούτῳ τὴν πόλιν, ἀμφισβήτησίς τε οὐκ ἔστʼ οὐδεμία οὐδενὶ τῶν νῦν παρὰ ταῦθʼ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν νομοθετῶν, ὄντως δὲ ἔσται σχεδὸν ὕπαρ ἀποτετελεσμένον οὗ σμικρῷ πρόσθεν ὀνείρατος ὣς τῷ λόγῳ ἐφηψάμεθα, κεφαλῆς νοῦ τε κοινωνίας εἰκόνα τινά πως συμμείξαντες, ἐὰν ἄρα ἡμῖν οἵ τε ἄνδρες ἀκριβῶς ἐκλεχθῶσι, παιδευθῶσί τε προσηκόντως, παιδευθέντες τε ἐν ἀκροπόλει τῆς χώρας κατοικήσαντες, φύλακες ἀποτελεσθῶσιν οἵους ἡμεῖς οὐκ εἴδομεν ἐν τῷ πρόσθεν βίῳ πρὸς ἀρετὴν σωτηρίας γενομένους.
ΜΕ. ὦ φίλε Κλεινία, ἐκ τῶν νῦν ἡμῖν εἰρημένων ἁπάντων ἢ τὴν πόλιν ἐατέον τῆς κατοικίσεως ἢ τὸν ξένον τόνδε οὐκ ἀφετέον, ἀλλὰ δεήσεσιν καὶ μηχαναῖς πάσαις κοινωνὸν ποιητέον ἐπὶ τὴν τῆς πόλεως κατοίκισιν.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις, ὦ Μέγιλλε, καὶ ἐγὼ ποιήσω ταῦθʼ οὕτως καὶ σὺ συλλάμβανε.
ΜΕ. συλλήψομαι.
Ath. Apparently, my friends, we must “take our chance with the crowd” (as the saying is), and if we are willing to put the whole polity to the hazard and throw (as men say) three sixes or three aces, so it must be done; and I will go shares with you in the hazard by declaring and explaining my views concerning education and nurture, the subject now started anew in our discourse; but truly the hazard will be no small one, nor comparable to any others. And you, Clinias, I specially exhort to take good heed to this matter. For as concerns the State of the Magnesians—or whoever else, by the god’s direction, gives your State its name,—if you frame it aright, you will achieve most high renown, or at any rate you will inevitably gain the reputation of being the boldest of all your successors. If so be that this divine synod actually comes into existence, my dear colleagues, we must hand over to it the State; and practically all our present lawgivers agree to this without dispute. Thus we shall have as an accomplished fact and waking reality that result which we treated but a short while ago in our discourse as a mere dream, when we constructed a kind of picture of the union of the reason and the head,—if, that is to say, we have the members carefully selected and suitably trained, and after their training quartered in the acropolis of the country, and thus finally made into wardens, the like of whom we have never before seen in our lives for excellence in safeguarding.
Meg. My dear Clinias, from all that has now been said it follows that either we must forgo the idea of settling the State, or else we must detain this Stranger here, and by prayers and every possible means secure his cooperation in the task of settling the State.
Clin. That is most true, Megillus; I will do as you say, and do you yourself assist me.
Meg. Assist you I will.
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