Plutarch · Dialogue on Love (Amatorius) Ἐρωτικός

Plutarch, Dialogue on Love (Amatorius) 4–5: Protogenes against love of women; Daphnaeus and Plutarch for it

Protogenes says that true love is love between males and that wedlock, useful for children, has no love in it. Daphnaeus answers by quoting Solon and Aeschylus on the love of boys, and then argues that if love between males, which is against nature, can reach friendship, love of women, which is according to nature, can all the more. He says that the ancients used the word charis, grace, for a woman's yielding.

Sections 4–5 · 1730 words · click a number to copy its link

ΑΥΤΟΒΟΥΛΟΣ. γενομένου δὲ γέλωτος, ὁ Πρωτογένης ἐγὼ δέ σοι δοκῶ εἶπεν ἔρωτι νῦν πολεμεῖν, οὐχ ὑπὲρ Ἔρωτος διαμάχεσθαι πρὸς ἀκολασίαν καὶ ὕβριν αἰσχίστοις πράγμασι καὶ πάθεσιν εἰς τὰ κάλλιστα καὶ σεμνότατα τῶν ὀνομάτων εἰσβιαζομένην καὶ ὁ Δαφναῖος αἴσχιστα δὲ καλεῖς ἔφη γάμον καὶ σύνοδον ἀνδρὸς καὶ γυναικός, ἧς οὐ γέγονεν οὐδʼ ἔστιν ἱερωτέρα κατάζευξις; ἀλλὰ ταῦτα μέν εἶπεν ὁ Πρωτογένης ἀναγκαῖα πρὸς γένεσιν ὄντα σεμνύνουσιν οὐ φαύλως οἱ νομοθέται καὶ κατευλογοῦσι πρὸς τοὺς πολλούς· ἀληθινοῦ δʼ Ἔρωτος οὐδʼ ὁτιοῦν τῇ γυναικωνίτιδι μέτεστιν, οὐδʼ ἐρᾶν ὑμᾶς ἔγωγέ φημι τοὺς γυναιξὶ προσπεπονθότας ἢ παρθένοις, ὥσπερ οὐδὲ μυῖαι γάλακτος οὐδὲ μέλιτται κηρίων ἐρῶσιν, οὐδὲ σιτευταὶ καὶ μάγειροι φίλα φρονοῦσι πιαίνοντες ὑπὸ σκότῳ μόσχους καὶ ὄρνιθας. ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ ἐπὶ σιτίον ἄγει καὶ ὄψον ἡ φύσις μετρίως καὶ ἱκανῶς τὴν ὄρεξιν, ἡ δʼ ὑπερβολὴ πάθος ἐνεργασαμένη λαιμαργία τις ἢ φιλοψία καλεῖται· οὕτως ἔνεστι τῇ φύσει τὸ δεῖσθαι τῆς ἀπʼ ἀλλήλων ἡδονῆς γυναῖκας καὶ ἄνδρας, τὴν δʼ ἐπὶ τοῦτο κινοῦσαν ὁρμὴν σφοδρότητι καὶ ῥώμῃ γενομένην πολλὴν καὶ δυσκάθεκτον οὐ προσηκόντως Ἔρωτα καλοῦσιν. ἔρως γὰρ εὐφυοῦς καὶ νέας ψυχῆς ἁψάμενος εἰς ἀρετὴν διὰ φιλίας τελευτᾷ· ταῖς δὲ πρὸς γυναῖκας ἐπιθυμίαις ταύταις, ἂν ἄριστα πέσωσιν, ἡδονὴν περίεστι καρποῦσθαι καὶ ἀπόλαυσιν ὥρας καὶ σώματος, ὡς ἐμαρτύρησεν Ἀρίστιππος, τῷ κατηγοροῦντι Λαΐδος πρὸς αὐτὸν ὡς οὐ φιλούσης ἀποκρινάμενος, ὅτι καὶ τὸν οἶνον οἴεται καὶ τὸν ἰχθῦν μὴ φιλεῖν αὐτόν, ἀλλʼ ἡδέως ἑκατέρῳ χρῆται· τέλος γὰρ ἐπιθυμίας ἡδονὴ καὶ ἀπόλαυσις. ἔρως δὲ προσδοκίαν φιλίας ἀποβαλὼν οὐκ ἐθέλει παραμένειν οὐδὲ θεραπεύειν ἐφʼ ὥρᾳ τὸ λυποῦν καὶ ἀκμάζον, εἰ καρπὸν ἤθους οἰκεῖον εἰς φιλίαν καὶ ἀρετὴν οὐκ ἀποδίδωσιν. ἀκούεις δέ τινος τραγικοῦ γαμέτου λέγοντος πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα μισεῖς; ἐγὼ δὲ ῥᾳδίως μισήσομαι, / πρὸς κέρδος ἕλκων τὴν ἐμὴν ἀτιμίαν. / τούτου γὰρ οὐδέν ἐστιν ἐρωτικώτερος ὁ μὴ διὰ κέρδος ἀλλʼ ἀφροδισίων ἕνεκα καὶ συνουσίας ὑπομένων γυναῖκα μοχθηρὰν καὶ ἄστοργον ὥσπερ Στρατοκλεῖ τῷ ῥήτορι Φιλιππίδης ὁ κωμικὸς ἐπεγγελῶν ἐποίησεν ἀποστρεφομένης τὴν κορυφὴν φιλεῖς μόλις εἰ δʼ οὖν καὶ τοῦτο τὸ πάθος δεῖ καλεῖν Ἔρωτα, θῆλυν καὶ νόθον ὥσπερ εἰς Κυνόσαργες συντελοῦντα τὴν γυναικωνῖτιν· μᾶλλον δʼ ὥσπερ ἀετὸν τινα λέγουσι γνήσιον καὶ ὀρεινόν, ὃν Ὅμηρος μέλανα καὶ θηρευτήν προσεῖπεν ἄλλα δὲ γένη νόθων ἐστὶν ἰχθῦς περὶ ἕλη καὶ ὄρνιθας ἀργοὺς λαμβανόντων, ἀπορούμενοι δὲ πολλάκις ἀναφθέγγονταί τι λιμῶδες καὶ ὀδυρτικόν· οὕτως εἷς Ἔρως ὁ γνήσιος ὁ παιδικός ἐστιν, οὐ πόθῳ στίλβων, ὡς ἔφη τὸν παρθένιον Ἀνακρέων, οὐδὲ μύρων ἀνάπλεως καὶ γεγανωμένος, ἀλλὰ λιτὸν αὐτὸν ὄψει καὶ ἄθρυπτον ἐν σχολαῖς φιλοσόφοις ἤ που περὶ γυμνάσια καὶ παλαίστρας περὶ θήραν νέων ὀξὺ μάλα καὶ γενναῖον ἐγκελευόμενον πρὸς ἀρετὴν τοῖς ἀξίοις ἐπιμελείας. τὸν δʼ ὑγρὸν τοῦτον καὶ οἰκουρὸν ἐν κόλποις διατρίβοντα καὶ κλινιδίοις γυναικῶν ἀεὶ διώκοντα τὰ μαλθακὰ καὶ θρυπτόμενον ἡδοναῖς ἀνάνδροις καὶ ἀφίλοις καὶ ἀνενθουσιάστοις καταβάλλειν ἄξιον, ὡς καὶ Σόλων κατέβαλε· δούλοις μὲν γὰρ ἐρᾶν ἀρρένων παίδων ὠν ἀπεῖπε καὶ ξηραλοιφεῖν, χρῆσθαι δὲ συνουσίαις γυναικῶν οὐκ ἐκώλυσε· καλὸν γὰρ ἡ φιλία καὶ ἀστεῖον, ἡ δʼ ἡδονὴ κοινὸν κἀνελεύθερον. ὅθεν οὐ δούλων ἐρᾶν παίδων ἐλευθέριόν ἐστιν οὐδʼ ἀστεῖον οὐ συνουσίας γὰρ οὗτος ὁ ἔρως, καθάπερ τῶν γυναικῶν.

AUTOB. At which the company falling into a loud laughter; How! said Protogenes, can you believe that I at this time wage war against love, and that I do not rather fight for love against intemperate desire and lascivious wantonness, which, under the shelter of the most honest and fairest names that are, let themselves loose into the most shameful acts of inordinate lust and concupiscence? Then Daphnaeus: Do ye number wedlock and the conjunction of man and wife (than which there is no tie more sacred in this life) among the vile and dishonest actions of the world? Why truly, replied Protogenes, this same bond of wedlock, as being necessary for generation, is not undeservedly perhaps extolled by our grave politicians and lawgivers, and by them recommended to the multitude. But I must tell ye, if you mean true love, there is not a farthing’s worth of it to be found among women. Nor do I believe that either you yourselves, or any other that dote so much as you pretend to do upon women and virgins, love them any otherwise than as flies love milk, or bees love honey-combs; or as cooks and butchers fat up calves and poultry in the dark, not out of any extraordinary affection which they bear to these creatures, but for the gain which they make of them. But as Nature prompts all men to the use of bread and meat with moderation and so far as may suffice the appetite, the excess of which becomes a vice, under the name of gluttony or gormandizing; thus it is natural for men and women to desire the pleasures of mutual enjoyment, but as for that impetuous concupiscence that hurries the greatest part of mankind with so much strength and violence, it is not properly called love. For love that is bred in a young and truly generous heart, by means of friendship, terminates in virtue; whereas all our desires towards women, let them be taken in the best sense he can, serve us only to reap the fruit of pleasure, and to assist us in the fruition of youth and beauty. As Aristippus testified to one that would have put him out of conceit with Lais, for that, as he said, she did not truly love him; no more, said he, am I beloved by pure wine or good fish, and yet I willingly make use of both. For the end of desire is pleasure and enjoyment. But love, having once lost the hopes of friendship, will neither tarry, nor cherish for beauty’s sake that which is irksome, though never so gaudy in the flower of youth, if it bring not forth the fruit of a disposition propense to friendship and virtue. And therefore it is that you hear a certain husband in a tragedy thus talking to his wife: Thou hat’st me? True; — and I thy proud disdain / Will brook with patience, careless of the pain, / So long as my dishonor gives me gain. /

AUTOB. Now I take him to be not at all a more amorous man than this, that can endure, for the sake of his carnal pleasure, and not for gain, the plague of a curst ill-natured shrew, that is always scolding. The first of which love-martyrs Philippides the comedian thus derided in the person of Stratocles the rhetorician: She lowers and growls and turns her tail / With fury so unkind, / The wittol blest would think himself, / To kiss her coif behind. /

AUTOB. Now if this be the passion you talk of which is to be called Love, it is a spurious and effeminate love that sends us to the women’s chambers, as it were to the Cynosarges at Athens. Or rather, as they say there is a sort of generous and true bred mountain eagle, which Homer calls the black eagle and eagle of prey, and then again there is another sort of bastard eagle, that takes fish and birds that are lazy and slow of flight, and wanting food makes a shrill and mournful noise for hunger; thus the true genuine love is that of boys, not flaming with concupiscence, as according to Anacreon the love of maids and virgins does, neither besmeared with odoriferous ointments, nor alluring with smiles and rolling glances; but you shall find him plain and simple and undebauched with pleasures in the schools of the philosophers, or in the wrestling-lists and places of public exercise, smart and generous in the chase of youth, and exhorting to virtue all that he finds to be fit objects of his diligence; whereas that other love, nice and effeminate, and always nestling in the bosoms and beds of women, pursuing soft pleasures, and wasted with unmanly delights, that have no gust of friendship or heavenly ravishment of mind, is to be despised and rejected of all mankind. This indeed Solon did, when he forbade slaves and servants the use of male familiarity and of dry ointment, but granted them the liberty to accompany with women; as looking upon friendship to be laudable and civil, but pleasure to be a vulgar thing and unbecoming a man born free. Whence it appears that to make love to a slave boy is ignoble and unworthy of a freeman; for this is mere mischievous love of copulation, like the affection toward women.

ΑΥΤΟΒΟΥΛΟΣ. ἔτι δὲ πλείονα λέγειν προθυμουμένου τοῦ Πρωτογένους, ἀντικρούσας ὁ Δαφναῖος εὖ γε νὴ Δίʼ ἔφη τοῦ Σόλωνος ἐμνήσθης; καὶ χρηστέον αὐτῷ γνώμονι τοῦ ἐρωτικοῦ ἀνδρός, ἔσθʼ ἥβης ἐρατοῖσιν ἐπʼ ἄνθεσι παιδοφιλήσῃ / μηρῶν ἱμείρων καὶ γλυκεροῦ στόματος. / πρόσλαβε δὲ τῷ Σόλωνι καὶ τὸν Αἰσχύλον λέγοντα σέβας δὲ μηρῶν ἁγνὸν οὐκ ἐπῃδέσω, / ὦ δυσχάριστε τῶν πυκνῶν φιλημάτων / ἕτεροι μὲν γὰρ καταγελῶσιν αὐτῶν, εἰ καθάπερ θύτας καὶ μάντεις εἰς τὰ μηρία καὶ τὴν ὀσφὺν ἀποβλέπειν τοὺς ἐραστὰς κελεύουσιν ἐγὼ δὲ παμμέγεθες τοῦτο ποιοῦμαι σημεῖον ὑπὲρ τῶν γυναικῶν εἰ γὰρ ἡ παρὰ φύσιν ὁμιλία πρὸς ἄρρενας οὐκ ἀναιρεῖ τὴν ἐρωτικὴν εὔνοιαν οὐδὲ βλάπτει, πολὺ μᾶλλον εἰκός ἐστι τὸν γυναικῶν ἢ ἀνδρῶν ἔρωτα τῇ φύσει χρώμενον εἰς φιλίαν διὰ χάριτος ἐξικνεῖσθαι. χάρις γὰρ οὖν, ὦ Πρωτόγενες, ἡ τοῦ θήλεος ὕπειξις τῷ ἄρρενι κέκληται πρὸς τῶν παλαιῶν· ὡς καὶ Πίνδαρος ἔφη τὸν Ἥφαιστον ἄνευ χαρίτων ἐκ τῆς Ἥρας γενέσθαι καὶ τὴν οὔπω γάμων ἔχουσαν ὥραν ἡ Σαπφὼ προσαγορεύουσά φησιν, ὅτι σμίκρα μοι πάις ἔμμεν ἐφαίνεο κἄχαρις. ὁ δʼ Ἡρακλῆς ὑπό τινος ἐρωτᾶται, βίᾳ δʼ ἔπραξας χάριτας ἢ πείσας κόρην;. ἡ δʼ ἀπὸ τῶν ἀρρένων ἀκόντων μὲν μετὰ βίας γενομένη καὶ λεηλασίας, ἂν δʼ ἑκουσίως, σὺν μαλακίᾳ καὶ θηλύτητι, βαίνεσθαι κατὰ Πλάτωνα νόμῳ τετράποδος καὶ παιδοσπορεῖσθαι παρὰ φύσιν ἐνδιδόντων, ἄχαρις χάρις παντάπασι καὶ ἀσχήμων καὶ ἀναφρόδιτος. ὅθεν, οἶμαι, καὶ ὁ Σόλων ἐκεῖνα μὲν ἔγραψε νέος ὢν ἔτι καὶ σπέρματος πολλοῦ μεστός ὡς ὁ Πλάτων φησί· ταυτὶ δὲ πρεσβύτης γενόμενος ἔργα δὲ Κυπρογενοῦς νῦν μοι φίλα καὶ Διονύσου / καὶ Μουσέων, ἃ τίθησʼ ἀνδράσιν εὐφροσύνας· / ὥσπερ ἐκ ζάλης καὶ χειμῶνος καὶ τῶν παιδικῶν ἐρώτων ἔν τινι γαλήνῃ τῇ περὶ γάμον καὶ φιλοσοφίαν θέμενος τὸν βίον. εἰ μὲν οὖν τἀληθὲς σκοποῦμεν, ὦ Πρωτόγενες ἓν καὶ ταὐτόν ἐστι πρὸς παῖδας καὶ γυναῖκας πάθος τὸ τῶν Ἐρώτων εἰ δὲ βούλοιο φιλονεικῶν διαιρεῖν, οὐ μέτριʼ ἂν δόξειε ποιεῖν ὁ παιδικὸς οὗτος, ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ ὀψὲ γεγονὼς καὶ παρʼ ὥραν τῷ βίῳ νόθος καὶ σκότιος ἐξελαύνειν τὸν γνήσιον Ἔρωτα καὶ πρεσβύτερον. ἐχθὲς γάρ, ὦ ἑταῖρε, καὶ πρῴην μετὰ τὰς ἀποδύσεις καὶ ἀπογυμνώσεις τῶν νέων παραδὺς εἰς τὰ γυμνάσια καὶ προσανατριβόμενος ἡσυχῆ καὶ προσεμβαλών, εἶτα κατὰ μικρὸν ἐν ταῖς παλαίστραις πτεροφυήσας οὐκέτι καθεκτὸς ἐστιν, ἀλλὰ λοιδορεῖ καὶ προπηλακίζει τὸν γαμήλιον ἐκεῖνον καὶ συνεργὸν ἀθανασίας τῷ θνητῷ γένει, σβεννυμένην ἡμῶν τὴν φύσιν εὐθὺς ἐξανάπτοντα διὰ τῶν γενέσεων. οὗτος; δʼ ἀρνεῖται τὴν ἡδονήν· αἰσχύνεται γὰρ καὶ φοβεῖται. δεῖ δέ τινος εὐπρεπείας ἁπτομένῳ καλῶν καὶ ὡραίων· πρόφασις οὖν φιλία καὶ ἀρετή. κονίεται δὲ καὶ ψυχρολουτεῖ καὶ τὰς ὀφρῦς αἴρει καὶ φιλοσοφεῖν φησι καὶ σωφρονεῖν ἔξω διὰ τὸν νόμον· εἶτα νύκτωρ καὶ καθʼ ἡσυχίαν γλυκεῖʼ ὀπώρα φύλακος ἐκλελοιπότος. εἰ δʼ, ὥς φησι Πρωτογένης, οὐκ ἔστιν ἀφροδισίων παιδικῶν κοινωνία, πῶς Ἔρως ἔστιν Ἀφροδίτης μὴ παρούσης, ἣν εἴληχε θεραπεύειν ἐκ θεῶν καὶ περιέπειν, τιμῆς τε μετέχειν καὶ δυνάμεως ὅσον ἐκείνη δίδωσιν; εἰ δʼ ἔστι τις Ἔρως χωρὶς Ἀφροδίτης, ὥσπερ μέθη χωρὶς οἴνου πρὸς σύκινον πῶμα καὶ κρίθινον, ἄκαρπον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀτελὲς τὸ ταρακτικὸν ἐστι καὶ πλήσμιον καὶ ἁψίκορον.

AUTOB. Now while Protogenes was desirous to say more, Daphnaeus interrupting him said: Truly you have done well to put us in mind of Solon, and we may make use of him as the judge of a person addicted to love. Hear what he says: Then dote upon the flowery youth of boys, / Their fragrant breath admiring and soft thighs. /

AUTOB. Add to this of Solon that other of Aeschylus: Ungrateful, for the kisses of my lips, / Not to revere the glory of my lips. /

AUTOB. These are proper judges of love; but others there are who deride all those that would have lovers inspect thighs and haunches, like so many sacrificers and diviners. And for my part I draw from hence a very strong argument on the behalf of the women. For if male converse, which is altogether against nature, neither extinguishes nor is any ways noxious to amorous affection, much more probable is it that the love of women, which is according to nature, should reach to the consummation of friendship, by virtue of that obsequious beauty which attends it. For I must tell you, Protogenes, the submission of the female to the male was by the ancients expressed by the word χάρις (grace or favor). For which reason Pindar observes that Vulcan was by Juno brought forth without the graces; and Sappho tells a young virgin, not yet ripe for matrimony, A little child thou seem’st, and without grace.

AUTOB. And a certain person puts the question to Hercules, By force or by persuasion did the maid / Her favors yield? /

AUTOB. But the submission of males to males, whether it be by compulsion and strength, like a violent and forcible rape, or whether it be voluntary, — men suffering themselves weakly and effeminately to be covered by each other, like four-footed beasts, and counterfeiting the act of generation in defiance of nature (as Plato says), — is void of all grace, brutish, and contrary to the end of venereal pleasure. Wherefore I am apt to believe that Solon wrote those lines when he was young, brisk, and full of seed (as Plato phrases it), but when he was grown into years, he sang another note: The sports of Venus, now, are my delight, / Or else with Bacchus to carouse; / At other times the Muses’ charms invite; / These are the chiefest pleasures mankind knows; — /

AUTOB. as if he had altered his course of life, and retired from the storms and tempests of pederastic fury into the calms of wedlock and philosophy. Now then, Protogenes, let us but consider the truth of the matter, we shall find the passion of lovers to be the same, whether it be for boys or for women; or if, out of a contentious humor, you will distinguish them, you shall find that this affection for boys does not keep itself within bounds, but like a late-born issue, clandestinely brought forth in the dark and out of season, it strives to expel the truly genuine and legitimate love, which is much the more ancient. For give me leave to tell ye, my dear friend, it is but (as it were) of yesterterday’s standing or of the day before — since young boys began to strip and show themselves naked in the public places of exercise — that this frenzy, getting in by degrees and crowding in there, afterwards by little and little became better fledged and gathered strength of wings in the wrestling- rings, so that now the insolence of it can no longer be so restrained but that still it will be affronting and adulterating conjugal love, which is the coadjutrix of Nature and helps to immortalize mortal mankind, raising up and immediately restoring again by generation our human nature when it has been extinguished by death. But this same Protogenes denies there is any pleasure in male concupiscence, for he is ashamed and afraid to acknowledge it. Therefore there must be some decent pretence for the feeling and handling these adult and lovely youths. And truly he has found out a very clever excuse, alleging it to be for the sake of friendship and virtue. Therefore he rolls himself in the dust, washes with cold water, erects his brows, and outwardly pretends to philosophy and chastity, for fear of the law; but when darkness covers the earth, and all people have betaken themselves to their rest, Sweet the ripe fruit he finds, its keeper gone.

AUTOB. Now if it be as Protogenes says, that no carnal conjunction attends these masculine familiarities, how can it be love, when Venus is absent; seeing that of all the Goddesses, she it is that Cupid is bound to obey and attend, and that he has no honor or power but what she confers upon him? But if there be a sort of love without Venus, as a man may be drunk without wine by drinking the decoctions of figs or barley, the disturbance of such a love must prove fruitless and to no end, and consequently loathsome and offensive.

People and places in this passage

English translation by John Philips (1874). Original text: William W. Goodwin (ed.), Plutarch's Morals, translated from the Greek by several hands, vol. 4, Boston: Little, Brown and Company; Cambridge: Press of John Wilson and Son, 1874 (Greek text: Gregorius N. Bernardakis, Plutarchi Chaeronensis Moralia, vol. 4, Leipzig: Teubner, 1892, as digitised by Perseus).

Greek text and translation from the Perseus Digital Library, Tufts University, CC BY-SA 4.0 (Perseus Digital Library); translation public domain. Introductions, summaries and notes © GreekMythology.com.